Hello All
Just over a week ago i failed a medical at work due to my blood sugar being to high so was sent home and placed on sickpay, was told to try again on Tuesday i was very careful all that weekend and still my blood sugar was to high so sent home again. Im a type 2 diabetic have been for maybe 9 years and im only 34. So my wife said about this book and i read it in a day and started it on Wednesday and saw results straight away, had a 3rd blood sugar test on Thursday and finally passed so i could go back to work! Had a chat with the doctor after my last test and told him what i was doing and he was all for it so that was good. Im on 4 metformin a day but by Friday my blood sugar was dropping below 4 so today i just took 2 and my blood sugar has been fine and I’ve felt much better because of it. Not got on the scales since i started by my wife tells me she thinks I’ve lost a chin! Haha so must be losing some weight.

Im a very fussy eater and ive eaten stuff this week i never thought id eat! My only concern is that with my job its quite physical and can involve alot of walking so for example in half a shift on Thursday i walked 7 miles and it turned out on my step counter ( how accurate they are i dont know) to my calories consumed was just about as many as i burnt doing walking etc i think my net calories for the day was 4. Is this ok or do i need to consume so more calories? Not really sure what im doing but it seems something is working alright! 🙂

Hi Aub188,
I have a physically active job, and find that providing I keep my carbs low, I don’t struggle with energy or hunger. In fact the opposite is true, I am more mentally alert, than if I eat a high carb diet.
The science is that if you keep your insulin levels low your body can use your fat stores to provide all your energy needs. – The more active you are the more fat you burn. –
I understand that there was some discussion about the program initially being 500 cals. The 800 cals level was simply set because it was thought most people would struggle to follow lower calories.

Hi Aub, congrats on your success! I wish I would lose a chin too hahah
I also have a very active job and have just started the diet. I usually don’t eat breakfast until I get home from work in the mid-afternoon after 4-6 hrs of physical activity and I feel fine working in fasted state. I don’t imagine it’ll be much different on the diet.
I also think it’s fine that your net calories is near zero, as on BSD you’re getting enough nutrients from your food and any deficit means your body will just burn fat for the energy it needs.
JGwen, that’s interesting, do you have any more information regarding the 500 calories? Makes sense because the 5:2 used to be 500 a day, and I think that was based on Alternate Day Fasting of 500 a day. I wonder if 500 would be better for me because 25% of my TDEE is about 440 calories

If you look at Jason Fungs work, he quite happily recommends people being on a fast to get weight down. I think I read that one of trails using special shakes for a few weeks was set at 500 cals per day. – If you research intermittent fasting for athletes they are doing a workout in the fasted state and then having a meal because that is the best way of encouraging your body to build muscle. – So there seems to be all sorts of varieties of recommendations out there in addition to the BSD on the number of cals to eat. – It wouldn’t be logical to assume there is a specific reason for 800 cals because every ones height/activity levels/build/weight to lose will be different.

The bottom line is you need to make sure you have all the appropriate vitamins and minerals each day. Providing you have your insulin levels under control, your body uses your fat for fuel to make up any short fall between calories in and calories burnt. – That is the key thing, if your insulin isn’t under control your body will adapt to less calories.

I find that the best option for me is coffee/soda water/water throughout the day and eat in a 4 hour window. – I know that there is research published that its best to have that window around lunch time rather than in the evening, but that doesn’t work well for me. So I try to set it from 5pm to 9pm.

JGwen, I’ve been meaning to catch up to you and pose a question 🙂 I’m curious about the manner in which you
portion your food within your 4 hour window? I haven’t been successful at fasting past 15 hrs., and I can’t see being
able to eat 800cal within a 4hr time frame. Just interested in what your winning strategy is! Thanks

Well done so far, Aub!

According to the book, we shouldn’t increase the calories we eat to make up for those we burn off when exercising, as the exercise is all part of the programme and helps us lose the weight more quickly.

Hi Alliecat,

I got into the routine over winter of starting the day with a coffee, or two and do any work I have to do on my computer.

Then I get on with any work on the holiday let or around the land. During that time I have coffee with either cream or whole milk or soda water to keep me topped up as I want it.

I tend to find that I get a bit hungry around 5pm so I will have something quick then – tonight it was asparagus cooked in butter in the microwave. Or it can be scrambled egg. The point is it has to be quick and to hand to stop me nibbling and to give me the space to decide on a good meal combination.

I take a bit of time for myself cook something a bit more substantial tonight its an omelette with veg. – Or it can be stir fried veg with tofu, or hummus with veg, or veg cooked in the microwave topped with cheese.

In winter then I used to do a bit more paperwork, but at this time of year I go out and do the evening feed round and check for any lambs that have sneaked through a small gap into an adjoining field and are then screaming their heads off because they can’t work out how to get back to mum. I tend to kick off my boots to watch a bit of tv around 8 or 9 with some Greek yoghurt and a few berries.

I don’t try to work out meals to make sure that I eat up to 800 cals. I just use fatsecret to log what I have eaten and give myself the freedom to decide what I fancy cooking/eating.

Thank you so much JGwen, for such a detailed response. I see the utter brilliance in your reasoning,
and it’s given me some hope that I can arrive at a similar course of action to master the extended fast
once and for all 🙂 The challenge for me is that I’m trying not to lose anymore weight, and I seem to now
require @ 1500 cal. a day to keep my weight stable. However, I’m sure that I can work that part out, and
perhaps dropping the calories for 1 20hr period will not have any detrimental effect. The picture in my mind
of the “lost little lambs” looking for mum put a wide grin on my face. Nice to have more daylight hours
at our disposal, isn’t it? How many sheep do you have? I think your lifestyle sounds wonderful!

Hi Alliecat,
I was pondering on why you want to achieve an extended fast when you are already down below your target weight. – Then it popped into my head that the research on the benefits of extended fasts, the body breaking down old tissue to generate new tissue may be what you are thinking about. –
I like the 20:4 combination because one of my worries was having lots of loose skin. So far thats been successful. Also it means that I don’t get stressed about what I can eat because its the end of the day, I am hungry but I only have x number of calories left out of my daily allowance.
I didn’t go straight into the 20:4 pattern, I was having 3 meals a day initially but as I gradually pushed the carb monster into the cupboard I found I wasn’t hungry in a morning, so I gradually slipped the time I started eating back. –

So if you are maintaining your weight at 1500 cals a day, were you thinking about moving from a daily cal allocation to a weekly one, were you thinking about carrying over the unused cals on the days you fast to the following days, or having them on the days before fasting?

I am starting to get a picture of you eating caveman style – having feast and famine days, a little slim Alleycat, sat behind a huge pile of roast meat on the days your hunt was successful.
———————–
I wouldn’t describe them as lost lambs, more intrepid explorers having a temper tantrum. – I have rare breed sheep, an ancient breed. The lambs seem to go through 4 stages of development, in the first couple of weeks mums tend to sit the lambs down in an area of cover and eat in a circle facing outwards. Then the lambs get a little more adventurous and start playing together, but when one calls its mum, mum goes running. Then they get the stage where all the lambs in the field join together running around like a school of fish, or a flock of birds, – At this point when lambs get tired of running around and are hungry they start shouting for their mum, but mum shouts back I am here, if you want me you can come to me…. Sometimes it takes the lambs a long time to realise mum means what she says and it turns into a shouting match between the pair that can go on for hours. One poor ewe sounded like she was loosing her voice yesterday evening, her lamb is such an independent little soul.

At the next stage, some of the lambs will manage to wiggle under the fence, or between the hinges and gate post to explore and they are so busy playing that by the time its evening and they want to get back to mum, they have forgotten how they got through. So thats my chore every evening for a little while. Listen out for where the explorers who have lost the map and now want their mum calls are coming from as opposed to the temper tantrum – no you come here – exchanges between mothers and lambs who are in the same field. Then open gates and try to encourage explorer lambs to find the gate. – Not always easy, last night one would get within 5 feet of the gate and then head off in any direction to avoid going through the gate, not helped by its mother deciding she had had enough of waiting for it and had wandered away.

JGwen – I am also looking at extending my fasts to around 19/5 to regenerate new tissue and hopefully improve insulin resistance. It was really helpful to know that you drink coffee with a dash of cream. I am doing the early in the day fasts which Luvtcook flagged up as interesting information and have noticed that my body really loves the food early in the day and a coffee around 5pm keeps my going all evening as I teach Pilates.

Your little lambs sound lovely – they certainly keep you busy and active.

Hi KrysiaD,
I looked at all the advice on Ketosis when I was working out patterns for this diet that would work for me. – They talk about staying under 50 cals, and the levels of fat mean that you stay in ketosis which is why cream is better than milk. –

(But they don’t mention time gaps between each 50 cals. 🙂

Thanks for the info JGwen. After reading about your eating style I’m considering pushing my meals back later in the day like you. It sounds temptingly convenient to not have to worry about cooking and eating during the day. What are you planning to do for maintenance, will you continue eating in a 4 hour window?

Loved reading about your lambs! Must be enjoyable to watch over their antics. I dream of having my own escape to the country one day (with any luck)!

Hi JGwen
Loved the great description of your lambs; I enjoyed the one of Alleycat Allie, too!

Hi Aub188,
Wondered how you are doing? It’s great news about the blood tests and the reduction in metformin. This diet has worked really well for many of us who are Type II diabetic – my Hba1c went from a high number back into the normal range following this way of eating. Do let us know how you get on. It’s a great motivator for the rest of us when we hear such positive results.
Marie x

JGwen and Marie, I just LOVED that imagine of me, too 🙂 🙂 🙂 However, instead of sitting cross legged (now
that I can do this, again) by the fire in my cave with meat, I would be surrounded not by animal carcasses, but piles of
fish heads, scales, feathers and poultry parts. I have just the modern day setting for my feast! As it happens,
my husband is a collector of prehistoric cave art, and the walls of his study are decorated with these impressions!
His newest acquisition is one of lions from a more recent cave in France. So you see, I can legitimately be
among other cats…but I will leave the red meat to them. JGwen, you put a face splitting smile on my face
first thing this morning 🙂 Reading about the ewes and lambs was akin to beginning the day with a wonderful
short story. Can’t thank you enough. It’s so great to have you here,

Allie

JGwen, I return to address the more serious portion of your wonderfully long post, since I was side tracked
by your narrative gifts and the hilarious depiction of me 🙂 As you correctly concluded, I’m interested in the
regenerative tissue aspects of extended fasting. I was fine up until @ 100lbs lost, but the extra 48 has come
with the expected loose skin. Like Krysia, I see my eating window earlier in the day, but will have to decide
by trial and error the qty of calories that I could possibly eat within a shortened time frame. I’m not thinking
about this as a daily practice, but more along the lines of 1 x week. As you suggest, the option exists to
use a weekly average, and if I encounter a sharp loss on the scales, I can eat above my maintenance pre
or post fast. I now see a possible way forward, thanks to your post and always keeping us on our toes
contemplating answers to all of your “whys”. It’s helpful beyond measure, and gives me an opportunity to
exercise the left portion of my brain, rather than the always dominate, intuitive side!
As always, many thanks!

JGwen – really useful information about the cream. So to keep within the 50 calories maybe I need to ration the coffee and cream – or at least space it out a bit. ☺

Thanks JGwen for the info and the lovely lamb stories. I’ve never touched a lamb, can you believe it! Always wanted to. My aunt rents out her field to neighbours for their lambs to use and they were shearing them the weekend before last when I called over. Fascinating to watch. Do you shear yours yourself?
I have the same loose skin concerns so am also thinking I’ll move from 18/6 to 20/4. Probably have a window between 4 and 8pm.

Hi KazzUK,
These are one of the oldest breeds of sheep, so they are quite different to the commercial breeds that you will be used to seeing. Retaining their fleece so it could be cut off and sold is something humans have selectively bred into commercial breeds. My sheep moult rather than needing shearing.
Alleycat, can I ask if you continued to loose weight at the same rate all the way through, both in the first 100 lbs and the last 48 lbs? I have been wondering about revising my targets to be about 1.5 stone more which would take me to around the 100 lb mark and then thinking about easing up on the cal counting. –
Have you looked at the bullet coffee idea? The principle is that because of the amount of fat you stay in keto, – so your body is still in fasting mode, but the fat levels also provide 450 cals.
I know you are keen on researching ratios of protein to fat to carb. I wondered if there is any research into how the protein levels effect remodelling/break down of cells?

Alleycat,
I think your question has set me off on a tangent, thinking about autophagy, keto, and low carb.
The presumption that it takes a certain number of days to get into the state of autophagy when you start fasting is linked assuming that you started from the standard carb high diet, so your body has reserves to go through before you get to autophagy.

So how long does it take for someone in a keto state to get into autophagy.? When I googled about the question I came up with lots of claims in terms of time, but also this paragraph.

“What turns off autophagy? Eating. Glucose, insulin (or decreased glucagon) and proteins all turn off this self-cleaning process. And it doesn’t take much. Even a small amount of amino acid (leucine) could stop autophagy cold. So this process of autophagy is unique to fasting – something not found in simple caloric restriction or dieting.”

If you listen to Jason Fung from about 28 minutes on in the following link he talks about MTor, which senses protein in the diet and switches off autophagy, He says there isn’t the research, but the theory is that you can get all the benefits of autophagy, if you have fat but no protein.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9Aw0P7GjHE&feature=youtu.be

IE bullet coffee. Is 0 protein, 0 carb, and lots of cals from fat.

JGwen! I’ve had annoying problems today, with internet access cutting in an out. Two of my posts to you simply
evaporated! There is always so much to “unpack” in your wonderful posts. I often find myself staring into the
distance, deep in thought, considering the subject matter you have presented. It is fascinating to consider the effect
protein has on autophagy. One of the long time maintainers here, MixnMatch, was experimenting with periods of
low protein, and even though it was months ago, I hope she sees your post and responds. Her username is testimony
to the fact that she tried different theories, and she is a wealth of knowledge on nutrition and weight loss. You may be
able to contact her by leaving a message on the thread she started, “After reaching your target, what’s next” My
particular interest in macros is the result of 2 factors, i.e., knowledge that excess protein gets stored as fat in
adipose tissue, and my own experience on a calorie restrictive diet about 19 years ago. I ate 550-650 calories
a day for 5 months. It didn’t amount to much more than 35g of protein a day. I lost 60lbs, but my hair started to
thin, and I was pulling wads of it out of my hairbrush each day. I didn’t want to repeat this mistake this time around,
so I did some research and arrived at the formula you have no doubt seen me post. I don’t seem to have lost any
muscle mass, so I’m reasonably sure that the formula is credible. I will be looking at the link you posted, and hope
to continue our conversation after doing so. To answer your question about my rate of weight loss throughout,
it was a consistent stone a month. About 2 months in I hit a plateau for 18 days, but once I did more
research on keto levels of 20g of carbs per day, it was clear sailing after that. I must also add that I had no knowledge
of Mosley or his BSD diet when I started. Indeed, I didn’t even know these forums existed until I was 2 months
into maintenance. I had to rely on my own research, which began with Taubes books. The outstanding thing
about this WOE is it’s flexibility to adapt to different lifestyles. You are certainly proof of that! I HAVE heard of
bullet coffee, and as a matter of fact, I’ve included cream in this week’s grocery order 🙂 You have given me the
confidence to design my own version of 20/4, so I thank you for that. I’ll let you know how it goes. Have I left
anything out? I hope not, but I’ll find you tomorrow should it prove to be the case. I hope the lambs didn’t keep
you in the pasture all evening! I’m off to my cave, whole fish hanging out of my mouth 🙂

Allie

Hi Alleycat,
I am glad to hear that you didn’t have problems with the storm. –

I get a lot of pleasure from our discussions, and the ideas they spark which send me off in directions to research. – It was a complete co-incidence that having speculated on if it was possible to benefit from autophagy without days of fasting this morning, a link to a video which answers the questions popped up on my facebook account this evening. – The library fairy at work again. – Maybe you have met one, library fairies are the ones that cause books to fall open at just the right place, or the right book to catch your eye when you are looking for an answer to a problem. Obviously they are going high tech.

I think that the video covers fairly recent research. – I was certainly struck by the evidence that there is a trace element in red meat that is difficult to obtain from any other source that makes a major difference to our ability to burn fat, and level of insulin resistance / autophagy. It was a bit of a light bulb moment for me. I have never eaten meat from childhood because I have always struggled to stomach the fat in meat, so my diet will have been deficient in this trace element all my life. – I am definitely heading down to the health food shop tomorrow to buy a supplement.