Ziggy can I just say I am a diabetic dummy and my only source of knowledge is a book called, appropriately ‘Diabetes for Dummies’. The reason for this is that I was diagnosed in France although I probably had it undetected in UK. When I signed on with my doctor I told him I had high BP and cholesterol so he sent me for the full blood works and he told me I was diabetic with a HBA1c of 14. Basically, I have no idea of what the insulin does. I cannot access Diabetes UK as it rejects my domain address as do most web sites or videos made by UK companies especially the BBC, so I have had to gather information as and when I see something. My doctor does not speak English but my French is now very good but it wasn’t to start with and over the years I guess I have just got used to my regime and not bothered to ask further questions. I have from time to time asked about new treatments, like when Byetta came out but nothing has become suitable for me. I guess he is not familiar with this diet as, when I have problems, he always asks the same questions. Do you eat too much chacuterie (cured meats), do you eat too much cheese, eggs, cream etc, and so on, just the usual.

I am on insulin because I cannot tolerate the meds. They make me very ill, tummy wise. When I go out and eat dessert I increase my insulin, not to deal with a spike but to help level out over a few days. Same with reducing when my numbers fall. I didn’t know I could have done exactly the same thing with going low carb for a few days but I didn’t eat in this way back then (is it really only 6 weeks ago). Can I assume from what you are saying that I could possibly manage without insulin if I keep to low carb and it is the low carb keeping b/g low, not the insulin.

I am open to being educated but hope this diet is the answer. I am also going to educate my doctor. Not easy to talk to him as I go all giddy as he looks like the guy from UK telly, I think is called the Rock. Tant pis pour ca, il est encore tres genial. (Translation., so much for that he is still very nice).

You see Lynn / Ziggy, this is the sort of thing I cannot view as it just shows me a blank screen with the circular arrow going round and round. I will have to have a big viewing session when I am in the UK at Christmas. I only found out about Dr M because I still get UK TV channels.

@ LynnPollen
Oh I know the insulin secretion tests are the nest way to definitely test whether you are still diabetic or not, but was just remarking that until I had read Prof Taylor’s tests I had never (in all my reading about diabetes) heard of them before.

@sunshine-girl
Have you tried joining the forum I posted you the address for??? – it has members worldwide – and if you have bother joining it I can sort it with the mods if you PM me – oh that’s right no PM on this forum (bit like the UK lol)

Ziggy can you remind me of the web site and I will have a go

Sure thing sunshine-giirl it is http://diabetes-support.org.uk/diabetesforum/index.php 🙂

It is a site ran by people with diabetes – all sorts of diabetes, type 1, 2, LADA, Gestational and others.. Smallish number of members but some have been diabetic for 40+ years, a wealth of wisdom, help, humour and the main bias of the site is very much towards LCHF.

Ziggy
Re your post of 28 July 2016 would you mind referring me to where Professor Taylor’s statement ‘“Follow-up of the Counterpoint Study at 3 months after completing the very-low-calorie diet showed that seven of the 11 participants did not have diabetes on oral glucose tolerance testing, despite weight gain of 4 kg” can be found?
Many thanks in anticipation

It was one of the pdf documents available for download at the Newcastle University site – search for the Newcastle Diet – oh wait I’ll see if I can find it – ah yes here is is – http://www.ncl.ac.uk/magres/research/diabetes/documents/Restoringnormoglycaemia.pdf – page 5 – column 2 , paragraph 2.
May I ask why you are asking for it Lynn?

Ziggy
Yes you may.
The first post on this forum, which is by me, sought to determine whether, having undertaken the BSD, I was likely to achieve normal blood sugar levels following a glucose tolerance test. The question was posed in recognition of the fact that this seemed to me to be the only way to determine whether I was free of diabetes provided I maintained circa that weight.
Evidential support for such a scenario could prove to be extremely useful when attempting to persuade someone in the medical profession to apply the test to me. Nevertheless, you will appreciate that there is no way that I could rely on an unsubstantiated quote.
Apologies for the previous reply. I had scanned your previous post and thought that you had said that you did not know about the first and second stage insulin responses.

Oh my diabetes forum have talked incessantly about the first and second stage insulin responses and how one or t’other or both ‘break’.

I thought you night be wanted evidentiary support, so am glad you will be suitably armed when tilting at the medical professional (Lord help them lol). One can also do an OGTT at home too, there are instructions and help on how to do that at home on the net and in diabetes forums. If I thought there would be a chance of having an insulin secretion test (I sincerely doubt the GP will even give the idea of me having such a test any credence at all), I think I would do a home OGTT to see if it indicated that my insulin responses were normal and then approach my GP to inquire into possibility of having the insulin secretion test.

Ziggy
First just to mention that I am Lynn’s husband and the one with the diabetes.
You seem both interested and particularly well informed on this subject (at least compared to me) and have produced some pretty relevant posts. Present company on this website aside, no one I have spoken to or contacted seems to have much of a clue of the subject or if they do they seem to be keeping it to themselves. I recognise that there are probably a myriad of related websites if you are prepared to spend the time and wade through the all the data. Even then you may not find the information for which you are searching.
There is one particular area I should be interested in if you don’t mind me enquiring. The holy grail for me would be to find out if it was possible to re-sensitise the beta cells in the pancreas, eat fairly normally, regain most of the weight lost and still remain diabetes free for another 5 – 15 years. Have you come across any research on this? The theory being that it took maybe 60 odd years to get into this state could it be that having re-sensitised the beta cells a significant amount of time would be required to repeat the sorry exercise or it may perhaps even be possible to remain non diabetic for the rest of one’s life by doing very little more.
Thanks in anticipation.

HI

I had been flamed in this forum so had made my mind up not to post again in the forum, then I read your reply.

Have a read at this – it is relevant to this diet also, see what you think https://www.patrickholford.com/blog/can-type-2-diabetes-be-cured

Ziggy
Thanks for the reply especially under the circumstances. I take it being flamed means that someone has been rude to you.
I am sorry you are leaving the forum. You are by far, and to be realistic, probably the only person who has posted anything of significant relevance to this thread.
I will read the linked article with interest and may well take your line and forget about this forum. I don’t know what your background is but having spent a career having to do it I can usually recognise sound people fairly quickly. You get my vote.
Very best wishes for the future and thanks again.
Lynn’s (H)

To Lynnepollen and Ziggy

I’m sorry if you feel this forum hasn’t been helpful, or worse that you’ve been ‘flamed’ (not sure exactly what you mean by that).

I know i speak for the vast majority of people in saying that’s not anyone’s intention – in this journey we’re overwhelmingly trying to be as helpful and supportive as we can to everyone. If responses to this thread haven’t been helpful, Lynne, that’s not because anyone intended that.

I’m not a medical expert and not diabetic either, though OH (Type 2) and I have read extensively in medical expert research and consulted doctors during the whole experience. We also have medical expertise in the family.

This forum isn’t full of medical experts – though there may well be some amongst us – and therefore you are quite right to explore elsewhere if that is specifically what you want. Although, as you will know, there is considerable debate even within the medical profession about the research and any conclusions to be obtained from it

Very best wishes to you both in your search for information, and in your quest for evidence to quote to your medical practitioners. And, of course, it goes without saying, in your efforts to reverse diabetes. Good luck.

Igorasusual
Nice post. Fully appreciate that posters have done their best.
Best wishes to all.

@ LynnPollen

Oh I will be about if you need to talk, just won’t be commenting on other people’s posts much if at all.

@ Igorsusual

I don’t see where I said that the forum isn’t helpful, TBH I was overjoyed when I found out that there was a forum for people wanting to reverse their diabetes (as per the TB programme by MM, just a bit disconcerted to see so few people actually stating that this is what they wanted to do.

I also restate that the diet also seems to work to cure prediabetes , causes speedy weight loss etc etc, and I’m happy for all those using it for those reasons too.

Hi Ziggy

I was only responding to your comment about being “flamed” by this forum. I’m quite possibly misunderstanding what you mean by that – it sounded quite unpleasant for you and I wouldn’t want to think I’d inadvertently contributed to that.

I take it you’ve read Bill1954’s thread “This has to work for me” which discusses at length his efforts to reverse his Type 2, with helpful comments from other people?

In any case:

Good luck with everything!

Well Ziggy, you know I am diabetic and that is my reason for this diet. I don’t know why anyone would want to go down to 800 cals if it wasn’t to reduce diabetic symptoms. Yet there are a lot of people who don’t mention diabetes. Maybe they don’t want to broadcast it or maybe they are just overweight and fed up (literally) of traditional diets. Whatever the reason it is good that we have found this.

I have just got out my prescription for my blood test tomorrow and noticed that as well as my HBA1c it is also for Abnormalite de lipides (Cholesterol test). I am so glad as I want to see it that has improved because my hubbies has, quite a bit since his last test a year ago which I put down to him almost being on this diet. He says it is because he has been using butter instead of margarine but that wouldnt make it better, just prove butter doesn’t make it worse.

Anyway, wish me luck, I will be fasting from 10 pm tonight and getting my tests done at 9 am tomorrow. As they say here, bon chance et bon courage.

@Igogsusual
I had a look at this thread ‘This has to work for me’ 17 pages long, so I skimmed. Bill seems to have had diabetes I would guess much longer than his diagnosis as he has suffered from complications caused by long term diabetes, and is on both tablets and injections. His FBS seems to cause him a lot of problems, and this can be approached by a few techniques to Dawn Phenomena. From his first months, his BG levels are not in the normal range but he doesn’t seem to test before – and after meals so as to ascertain the spike in his BS levels.

My reason for doing this diet is Professor Roy Harper’s proof that diabetes can be reversed by a low cal diet, and MM’s documentary and book.

Whether it will work outside the laboratory is debatable, certainly nobody on the forum has claimed to have reversed their diabetes (have they? maybe I’ve missed it if they have). But, I thought there would be no harm in trying. I have been keeping my BG levels in the normal range – as far as my HbA1c results testify, but I wanted to be rid of the diabetes completely, if it could be done.

I don’t believe I said that the ”forum’ flamed me, but one person did, accusing me of saying that only people with Type2 should use this forum and then saying I have caused them to leave the forum. I don’t need that when I am only expressing my views of my reason for undertaking this diet, and my results.

Congratulations to you for reaching your target and the best of luck in maintenance (probably the most difficult past if the truth be told)

Ziggy, do you mean Prof. Roy Taylor. I have googled Harper and he is a diabetologist (??) so is there something I should be looking at there too. Thanks for the diabetic website you recommended.

Sorry sunshine-girl, Yes I meant Roy Taylor – the only Roy Harper I know is a sixties blues singer who Led Zeppelin had a song about – “Hats off to Roy Harper”

How’s your Fast 800 experience going for you?

Ziggy, funny that he is also a diabetic specialist based in Ireland. For my progress read 4 post previous. Blood test tomorrow.

sunshine-girl
Good luck with the results
Funny, I always have my cholesterol tested as part and parcel of my Hba1c, as well as having my feet tested for nerve damage, my weight and blood pressure taken, a urine sample tested for sugar in the urine and a separate eye examination for retinopathy.

Don’t get me started on cholesterol, GPs just seem to talk about good cholesterol and bad cholesterol when in reality it is a bit more complicated than that – it comes down to triglycerides and VLDL and gender and age and …….. – oops getting boring now – sorry.

Anyhow – GOOD LUCK – though I am absolutely sure that all your numbers will be so much better! 🙂

Ziggy

Re Bill1954’s thread I know he has posted about moving from testing fasting bloods to testing before and after meals as more reliable indicator. He’s recommended that to others on more than one occasion.

However not sure where these posts will be if not on that main one – so much advice here now it can be very tricky to find.

I will see if I can search to find reference to it – or he may return to post if you post on one of his threads, if you wanted to follow up for completeness

Blood test done this morning although the girl hacked my arm to pieces and had to take it out of my hand. Even then she didn’t get enough and was pouring from one vial to another. Now waiting for my results.

Ziggy, I only get my cholesterol done twice a year but my HBA1c every 3 months. All other tests (triglycerides, sedimentation rate, white cell, red cells and urine and on and on and…. ) are anually. They are all done at a lab. The doctor sees me every 3 months and checks my weight, BP, feet and ankles, heart and lungs and lecture. I get a complete workout.

Back later today or tomorrow when my results arrive. I am frightened…….

wow – that’s speedy! UCH always seem to take a week to get test results back to my GP

I was amazed at the vets last week when he did an analysis of her urine while we were there.

Frog, the facility is all in one place so she took my blood and then took it straight to the technical person. The results come by email or I can collect later today. If the urine test was just a bililab stick (a dip in test) that takes seconds, full analysis takes a look under a microscope and other tests. Can I get this right, was it an animal you took the the vet or yourself???????

Yes, the vet visit was my cat rather than me!
I’d had blood test done a few weeks before, trek to Euston, have the test, find out the GP had checked the wrong box, back to the GP, back to Euston the next day, chase the results a week later, get them after about ten days…..
– So when he did the analysis before deciding what to prescribe, I was impressed, and felt the Froglet was getting a better service – but you’re right, if it was a simple dip test, that’s a lot simpler.

Hello Ziggy
no need for anyone to flame you, this is an open forum where anyone (apart from spammers and obvious WUM’s) should be allowed free expression of their opinions.
To clarify, I used to test at waking and pre and post dinner and yes, I always had a higher fasting reading than at other times of day. My diabetes nurse advised me to stop worrying about the fasting test as it is the most unreliable of the day and the only benefit is that it shows how much sugar your liver is releasing through the night (dawn effect as you rightly say)
I now only test before and after dinner, ( not lunch as I don’t eat breakfast so a pre lunch reading would still be a fasting reading), and the results are now always in the 4 to 5 range which is more or less normal.
I am due my next HbA1c test in September and hope to be pronounced non diabetic by then.
Hope that helps clear things up a little

My results are in from the laboratory. YES YES YES, DOING THE DANCE OF HAPPINESS, DRIVING HUBBY MAD.
HBA1C was 8.1 NOW……. 6.6
Total Cholesterol HDLwas 4.1 NOW…… 3.7
Triglycerides was 1.50 and 1.71 NOW…… 1.21 and 1.38

That is after 6 weeks on the BSD. What next.

Cant wait to see my doctor on Wednesday.

Well done, Sunshine Girl, absolutely thrilled for you 🙂

As you say – what next! 🙂 🙂

WHAT NEXT indeed sunshine-girl – lower and lower I guess 🙂

I was right (I am SO glad to be able to say I was right without sounding smug) – all your numbers were lower. Plus your weight was so much lower tooooo!!!

Dancing with you.

(we only get one triglyceride result – as far as I remember we get total chol, hdl, trigs, estimated ldl, and a few ratios.

Brilliant results 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂

Apologies for not posting sooner.
Did the diet reverse my diabetes – almost definitely not. I lost 15% of my total body weight which continued to drop to approx 17.5% even after I had stopped dieting. In fact I am presently having trouble trying to put weight back on. My HbA1c dropped from 49 mmol/L to 41 mmol/L i.e. into the normal range but this may have been a reflection of the diet’s necessarily restricted calorie intake. Nevertheless, the weight loss probably helped and I have no regrets about following the diet which proved to be fairly easy.
My objective at present is to prevent my blood glucose levels from spiking too much or to at least maintain a relatively normal levels for the vast majority of the time. This should protect the beta cells in my pancreas and even enable them to rejuvenate.
I perused some of the diabetic forums and was heartened to read that dropping blood glucose levels fairly significantly shouldn’t present a major problem. I found the following web pages particularly informative.
All removed in case it infringes copy write. Apologies but there are some really humpy people on some of the forums and I cannot take the chance.

I also came across an interesting article in which you may be interested. It was on the Mendosa.com website and was entitled ‘Controlling the Dawn Phenomenon’. The article refers to several studies in professional literature which clearly show that vinegar or lemon juice can reduce blood sugar levels. In at least one study for people with a typical fasting blood glucose level of more than 7.2 mmol/L vinegar helped reduce fasting blood glucose by 6%! As a consequence I consumed 2 tablespoons of lemon juice before retiring and my fasting blood sugar levels matched my lowest fasting reading to date at that time – 6.2 mmol/L. I have since carried out a series of tests using 2 tablespoons of cider vinegar together with a little cheese and my mean waking blood sugar level has dropped from an average of 6.7 to 6.2 over 20 tests – not statistically valid, I know, but very encouraging!
I was given a Verio blood meter (Blood Glucose Meter Accuracy Comparison (Chart)
https://www.diabetesdaily.com/blog/2013/07/blood-glucose-meter-accuracy-comparison-chart/) by the chemist and as per the advice gleaned from the above web sites I attempted to identify which foods my body could tolerate. I found that even 10 grams – one tablespoon of dried porridge spikes my blood sugars into glucose intolerance as does even one slice of bread! This has proved to be a useful exercise and by avoiding both bread and porridge my bloods are virtually now all within the normal range. I attempt to achieve a blood count of below 8 mmol/L after the first hour and, if possible under 7 mmol/L after the second. I believe that the World Heath Organisation, the National Institute of Clinical Excellence and the American Diabetes Association target is below 7.8mmol/L by the end of the second hour.
The only thing that I and most diabetics seem to have to avoid are processed grains and the obvious sugar laden drinks and food. I can eat as much fruit, meat, fish, vegetables and drink as much alcohol etc as I like within reason.
I recognise that this post is extremely brief but diabetes is such a wide subject and while this is only a glimpse I am afraid that I am presently pushed for time. Nevertheless, and also of potential interest, if you are not already aware of it, a trial was successfully undertaken to reverse diabetes in rats – referenced on the Mendosa website. A cure is probably in the pipeline at some stage if we can all hold out long enough!
Best wishes and thanks for the initial input.
Lynn’s husband.