I see that the previous advice to eat 5 portions (400g) of fruit and veg a day has now been upped following research by UCL to ten a day – 800g. How practical is this? Looking back at what I ate yesterday (when I sneaked over the 800 cal to 827, whereas I normally average about 750 cals) my total food intake weighed less than 700g – so is this latest advice really practical?
Mike
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Probably not on 800 cals a day certainly. I can’t see me getting to ten but on a maintenance level I would probably get to the five OK. Also I understand that the percentage of people in the UK managing five a day is quite low so moving the recommendation seems a bit ambitious.
I believe that 10 a day has been the recommended level in Korea for many years and they are regularly towards the top of the longevity and quality of life in old age league tables. So there may be something in it.
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I reckon that there is something in it in theory, but for the vast majority of people, many of whom get nowhere near 5 a day, never mind 10, I can’t help feeling that it may well be counter-productive – setting a goal that is totally out of reach may well discourage people from even trying to increase the veg/fruit intake. Interesting to see that the research also said that tinned fruit had a negative influence – presumably because much of it is in syrup.
Mike -
Out of idle curiosity, I checked an imaginary ’10 per day’ menu. Obviously, there are many different combinations possible, I just picked on things that are readily available and excluded what I feel that many people told to eat more vegetables would automatically include – the potato.
My ten were broccoli, cabbage, cauliflower, mange tout, green beans, parsnip, carrot, peppers, apple and raspberries. Can’t say I would find such a selection particularly appealing, but they all seem to be to be reasonable choices.
The ten foods totalled just 315 calories, 3 grams of fat, of which 0.3 saturated, 62 g of carbs, of which 26 was sugar, 17 grams of fibre and 16 of protein and no salt. Clearly such a menu would need considerable additional items to reach decent levels of just about everything – it has hardly any ‘good’ fat, and is well down in fibre and protein. It is richest in carbs, the very thing the BSD advises to reduce.
Mike -
Interesting exercise Michael Rolls. I agree, upping the level when most don’t even get to the current recommendation seems counterproductive to me too. I admit I rarely – if ever – get to the five a day, especially on the BSD where keeping carbs under control is an important factor.
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Me too – my ‘vegs’ tend to be lettuce, celery, cucumber, carrot, plus seeds – but not even remotely approaching 400g, never mind 800.
Mike -
Maybe if you encourage people to eat 10 they might manage 5!
I’m aware of the need to eat more veggies and really do miss the fruit but a couple of mixed salads,: salad leaves, spring onions, cucumber, red pepper, tomatoes, cooked green beans, artichokes for example and a couple of mixed veg soups (leeks, green beans, celery, courgettes, broccoli or cauliflower) per week do seem to do the trick round here. I haven’t worked out the carbs but I don’t eat them every day. There are also raw veggie strips with dips. I don’t think it’s hard to get variety…not quite sure what constitutes a serving though.
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I checked my log yesterday and tallied up all my fruit and veg grams: 327 grams from raw spinach, kalamata olives, roasted red pepper, garlic, oregano, cucumber, green onion and avocado. I had a big spinach salad for dinner or I know I wouldn’t have gotten as close as I did to the old 400 gram recommendation. The day before I had less than 100 grams from olives, cauliflower and zucchini.
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Angela06
80 grammes. So 10 a day is looking to you eating 800 grammes of vegs/fruit, with the research claiming that vegs are 4 times as effective as fruit. As I mentioned before, 800 grammes is more than my total intake of food in a day, and I’m not little – 6’1″, 13 stone now, down from 13-9 since starting the BSD 5 weeks ago.
I’m sure that you are right in that telling some people to eat ten a day may get them to move towards 5 or whatever from where they are at present, but when you look around at what the majority of people eat, I feel that it is far more likely to get the reaction ‘You must be joking!’ sort of thing from most folk.
Have you looked at the protein and ‘good’ fat content of what you are having? The – admittedly hypothetical – menu that I posted is well short of some essential dietary elements, and compared to those elements is relatively high in carbs.
I eat a salad most days, but with a base of something with protein – ham or chicken usually, as the ‘greenery’ of one of my typical salads has around 30-40 calories – celery, cucumber, carrot, lettuce – and virtually no protein nor fibre nor ‘good’ fat, and that amount of greenery is a heaped dishful – not sure that I could actually manage to eat much more..
Mike -
Esnecca
You are obviously taking care of your diet and even that is way short of 800 grammes a day. I do wonder how realistic some of this sort of research is when applied to the popualtion at large.
Mike -
Sorry, Michael, I haven’t read the research, don’t know the figures. Is that 10x80g a day or 80g per day in total? My point is that over a week it’s possible to get in a good variety of veggies quite easily and I guess if you remove the animal protein which I feel the government would like us to do then immediately we’d eat more fruit and vegetables. Is it practical? Probably not on the BSD…
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A quick post script…just read an interesting article by Felicity Cloake in the Guardian about the practicalities. Apparently it is possible but you have to devote a fair bit of time to peeling and preparing.
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Agreed, Michael, the 800 g goal seems very unrealistic. It’s not even possible on the BSD, I don’t think, and for most people would require a complete upending of the conventional thinking of vegetables as a side dish. It seems to me they’d have to become the centerpiece of the meal with proteins and fats as the sides, and like you found in your tally of ten foods, the carbs can and will skyrocket when you dramatically increase your fruit and veg intake, even if you cut out root veg like the parsnip and larger portion fruits like the apple.
Take the humble cauliflower, for example. It’s become a staple for low carbers because of its versatility. Riced, mashed, roasted, it’s always good. But sticking to the modest serving size is essential if you’re trying to cleave to low carb principles. There are 3 grams net carbs (2 of them sugar) in 100 grams of cauliflower. However, in one medium head 5″ in diameter there 17 grams net carbs, 11 of them sugar. The inevitable consequence of having to triple or quadruple your veg intake is to significantly increase your carb intake as well. You’d have to stick to leafy greens, and enormous amounts of them, to even have a shot of making the serving goal without blowing your carb limit.
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Esnecca I agree on the carb count, I had Greek yoghurt with half a kiwi fruit and a passion fruit and I was already up to 15 carbs. Beetroot soup for lunch which had onion and garlic and ginger and gave me 23 carbs and tonight I am having chicken stir fry, another 17 carbs. Total fruits and veg 8 and 61 carbs, still it has to be healthier than a bowl of cereal, a tuna sandwich then chicken stir fry with rice. We just have to be realistic and do what we can.
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Sunshine gril
Absolutely – we just do what we can
Angela 06 – the recommendation is ten helpings of 80 grammes each – 800 total, which frankly I think is pretty unrealistic for most people. Perhaps the researchers weren’t worried about carb levels?
Must try and find that Guardian article
Mike -
I think I have found the article:-
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/feb/28/10-fruit-veg-a-day-diet-tested-i-feel-like-sentient-composter
And it is horrific! No mention of just what level of carbs is being consumed – but it looks a lot. Ditto sugar and the chap ate far more fruit than vegetables – a half tin of baked beans counts as one helping – baked beans are high in carbs and processed sugar. Gets through grapes and satsumas – both high in sugar and nothing else.Can’t say that I am very impressed; as a balanced diet it looks rather like the old drinker’s adage that a balanced diet is a pint of beer in each hand!
Mike. -
Wow. That was just terrible. I like how they sort of casually nod at advice that fruit should be no more than 2 of 7 portions while the guinea pig fellow ingests piles of it. I mean, 60 grams of sugar for breakfast is insanity, and that’s not even counting the non-sugar carbohydrates. By comparison, two frosted cinnamon brown sugar Pop Tarts have 30 grams of sugar, and sugar is literally in the title of the product.
Cross-cultural query: pudding doesn’t just mean the jiggly dessert, right? Am I correct in understanding that it is also used as a general term for the dessert course?
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Esnecca
Yes, the sweet course may be called pudding, dessert or – logically – sweet!
Mike -
Or afters, in Yorkshire, carnation milk with a slice of bread to mop it up.
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That sounds like something from Foyle’s War.
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Ah – I forgot ‘afters’!
Mike -
Don’t want folk to think that I am beating the drum excessively over this, but I have just jotted down what would have been a more or less typical day’s food before stating the BSD. Whilst it was around 1800 calories, it only weighed around 660-700 g, so even if one were to totally substitute the 10 a day elements fro what I actually used to eat – and doing that would seem a pretty unbalance diet – I just don’t see how 800g of fruit and veg is actually realistic unless one is eating a LOT more than I used to. Prior to BSD I clocked up as overweight, with a BMI of 26-27, so to accommodate the 10 a day theory just wouldn’t seem on.
Mike -
My two cents in…… right now while I am on the BSD 800 calories – No, 10 a day is not practical – but once I go to maintaining and eating a ‘normal’ daily calorie intake to maintain existing weight (when I get there! in the future) – 315 calories by your numbers Mike is not a lot of calorie or carb intake if I keep the remaining 900-1000 calories for protein and good fats – which is what my intention is after I stop the very low calorie diet. It will just take a little more effort in the planning of my meals.
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Fun discussion! How about more of my go-to veggies — spinach sautéed with garlic and lemon and a bit of olive oil, red cabbage slaw with oil vinegar and celery seed, parsley and basil pestos — parsley just to munch on, chopped cilantro toppers on lots of stuff, chopped mint on curry, arugula salads, chopped and sautéed chard, slow cooked collards — you can load up on greens, which are super nutrient powerhouses, low calories, high fiber (don’t forget to subtract fiber from carbs) and a cup cooked isn’t a huge serving. Skip the fruit, eat greens — the darker the better!
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Luckylinda
I take your point about the number of calories can be fitted into a total intake of 1300 or so – but would the bulk be manageable? 800 g seems a hell of a lot to me when it is more that I used to eat in total before BSD -and quite a lot more than I am eating at teh moment. Today’s total intake only weighed 582 g, but had within that 84g of protein, 37g of ‘good’ fat., only 6g of processed sugar (mostly in yoghurt). Bit low on fibre at only 7.5 – the quandary I keep finding is that trying tofind a real balance is like squeezing a balloon – bits always pop out where you don’t want them!Californiagirl
How much protein do you get in all those foods? Have to admit that I’ve never heard of some of the items you mention – are they specific to the USA or am I just ignorant of them – very possible? The thing that concerned me when I ran the numbers for the ten a day I identified was the very low protein level – perhaps the items you mention are better in that respect?
Thanks for the feedback, ladies.
Mike -
Oh, should have said -my 582g of food today excludes liquids, as the 800 for the 10 a day also excludes them
Mike -
Hi Mike! So, regarding protein, most of what I mentioned are greens and not a significant source of protein. However, greens are so low in calories and carbs (with lots of fiber) that they should leave you with enough calories to “spend” on high quality protein like fish or beef.
My favorite companion book to the BSD diet is Gary Taubes book, “Why We Get Fat and What To Do About It” — it has a great quote in it — “if it is a leaf you can eat it”. All the greens I named are “leaves” so I just eat a LOT of greens to fill up and for nutrition. I don’t even bother counting carbs with greens because they are negligible.
Chard, collards, kale — those must be available everywhere — also cilantro, basil, mint, parsley — I assume they are all usual veggies but maybe I don’t know your area?? I’m in California and we get good veg selections here. Where are you located? Maybe there are local similar veg? -
Hi californiagirl
The ones I hadn’t heard of (must do some looking) were chard, collards, ciltrano, arugula, – but as I say, that may just be my ignorance. Until starting the BSD my knowledge of, and liking for, greens was pretty well limited to green beans, peas and lettuce – like them – and cabbage cauliflower, and broccoli – loath them!
I live in Scotland, about 50 miles north of Edinburgh, near Perth.
Mike -
Ah, I see that collards aren’t grown in Europe, so not surprising that our small local supermarket doesn’t have them – does have the other family members, cabbage, etc.
Chard does appear on the Tesco website, but by the looks of it, it again isn’t something likely ot appear in the smaller stores such as ours.
Ciltrano seems to be unknown at Tesco. Arugula, on the other hand appears as one of the constituents in a number of mixed salad leaf offerings, though not, as far as I can see, by itself – I’d just never noticed in mentioned in any list of ingredients.Nice to learn something new – thanks
Mike -
Think the nearest we have to collards is Spring greens. Arugula is rocket here, a salad leaf. Cilantro is coriander, a herb with a strong flavour.
Hope that helps!
Su -
Kale and chard are really,really easy to grow.I still have kale in the garden ,have been making kale crisps,they are delicious!You can also buy frozen spinach and kale that you can add to soups,stews etc for extra greens.
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Ciltrano is coriander, I believe. You wouldn’t want a salad solely made out of that, though!
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Michael – I live in a small market town and my local Morrisons stocks chard (various types) intermittently, so I’m guessing it is probably in most of the supermarkets’ supply chains. Lovely fried in a a bit of butter with garlic and ginger. Separate the stem from the leaf fry it first then flash fry the leaves.
Good in curries too. -
Thanks for the translations, folks – as Churchill said ‘Two great nations separated by a common language’! I know rocket, coriander (whihc I’ve only ever used as a spice) and spring greens, so now I understand a bit more. Thanks again.
Mike -
Interesting
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Laugh out loud — great Churchill quote!!
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Glad you liked it!
Mike -
There are stealth greens too, ones that aren’t labelled or sold under their own byline but attached to a vegetable. Turnip greens, for example, are delicious, and I’ve never once seen them on their own, just attached to actual turnips. See also beet greens, radish greens and kohlrabi greens. These veggie greens tend to be lighter and easier to cook than their grown-on-their-own green cousins. Most of them can be quickly steamed or sauteed. The big tough guys like collards need to cooked at length. In the Southern US where they are a staple, they are cooked with a hamhock and a splash of vinegar for hours. Chard doesn’t need that kind of treatment, but kale can take some cooking too.
Oh, and then there’s the potlicker. In the South, that’s what they call the water you cooked the greens in and it is considered something of a cure-all, like the Southern version of chicken soup. It is brimming with the vitamins and minerals the greens lost in the cooking process and can be drunk in a mug like broth or tea. Collards potlicker is not for me on account of I dislike collards immensely, but y’all, believe me when I tell you that kale potlicker is ambrosia. It’s one of my favorite things purely based on its flavor, not even counting its nutritional value.
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P.S. I love how this thread embodied that Churchill quote in both directions. First the pudding, then the greens. 😀
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Yup over here cabbage water (in the days when it was boiled to within an inch of disintegrating – and then boiled some more) was considered a drink that was good for you and especially good for your complexion. Speaking of boiling veg gentle reminder – it will soon be time to put the Brussels on so that they are ‘just done’ on Christmas Day 😄.
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I remember reading in John Steinbeck’s ‘Once there was a war’ – his articles as a war correspondent – the comment that he could not understand why the English, who were so kind to their dogs and occasionally to their wives, were so cruel to their vegetables, boiling them to mush. It was certainly true of my mother’s generation, which is probably why I loath things like cabbage, etc. from boyhood memories. I remember (but I paraphrase) Steinbeck commenting that the idea of plucking a carrot from the ground, brushing off the soil and eating it, seemed to threaten the end of civilisation for the English! I say English for Steinbeck did – perhaps he had a higher regard for our Celtic cousins.
Mike -
Lol AnnieW!
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The cabbage water was probably better for you than whatever was left of that sad, abused cabbage. No wonder Mike is still coping with the childhood trauma of it.
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Very true – it’s a funny thing about food phobias. When I was about five or six I apparently loved tomatoes, and raided the greenhouse and gorged on unripe ones- and was violently sick as a result. Ever since then I haven’t been able to look a tomato in the face – watching one being cut up actually makes me nauseous – yet I can consume tomato and lentil soup perfectly happily, ditto dishes including tomato provided there aren’t actually identifiable pieces of tomato! Daft, I know, but I can’t help it.
Mike -
Seems my mental synapses are very much on the slow side at the moment, as it was only this morning that I joined together Michael’s statement about the Korean diet and the longevity of Koreans, being the reason for the recommendation to increase from 5 to 10 portions of veg and fruit a day, with the fact that they eat a great deal of Kimchi – fermented cabbage. In fact, apparently they eat a lot of veggies fermented, not just the cabbage, so surely this must raise the question, is it the quantity of veg they eat that makes the difference, or is it that much of it is fermented?
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Californiagirl – a great quote on leaves (I love any sort of leaf either as a stirfry or salad). Just don’t apply the rule to rhubarb!
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Fermented veggies are ridiculously good for you. Most of the sugar is consumed during the fermentation process, so the final product is basically carbless, and the quantity of probiotics in fermented veg like raw sauerkraut and kimchi numbers in the billions. You’d have to swallow a whole bottle of supplements to match the amount in a 1/4 cup of sauerkraut. It has to be raw, though. Most sauerkraut these days is cooked to get to the salable stage faster. Fermentation takes time.
I try to have at least a tablespoon of raw sauerkraut a day to nourish my intestinal flora and fauna. Funny, I never even though to include it in my veggie gram count above.
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It’s also the range of probiotics that I reckon is good for you. PrincetonianStud, who made some great posts on here, was a great fan and very knowledgeable about these things.
I’ve been making home made kimchi for the last year or so and, as in Korea, it is great with everything.
I made some Tsukemono at Christmas to have with cold turkey and ham – fabulous, if a bit fiddly. -
Never having heard of kimchi before, I looked up its calorific content – the one that came up was Korean Radish Kimchi – I don’t know if it is typical of the genre? What intrigued me was that apparently 100g only offered 17 cals, 1g of fat, 3g of carbs, and 1g each of fibre and protein. Unless I am missing something, as nutrition goes, it seems not to offer much more than bulk.
Mike -
I haven’t encountered radish kimchi before. The standard kimchi is made with cabbage, ginger, chili peppers, garlic, carrots, green onions and ginger. There are radishes in the mix too, but they’re background players compared to the cabbage.
Bulk at low cost in calories and carbs is advantageous when you have to ration both. That 1/4 cup hit of hot and sour can be quite effective at nipping hunger in the bud. What makes it nutritionally valuable is that kimchi is bristling with probiotic lactic acid bacteria which are the agents of fermentation. These priobiotics have been shown to, among other things, suppress carginogen-activating enzymes, improve regularity and lower cholesterol. In fact, researchers discovered a new lactid acid bacterium in kimchi and named it, appropriately enough, Lactobacillus kimchii.
I’m a bit of heat coward, so I tend to prefer sauerkraut, which may not have its own probiotic isolate, but is even lower in carbs. My favorite brand of raw garlic sauerkraut is .5 grams net carb, 1 gram fiber, 1 gram protein and 10 calories per 60 gram serving.