Wendleg – Episode 2. This is where it gets really interesting and everything goes ‘tits up’.

September 2016 It is going really well. Maintenance at 9 stone 6lbs. Retinopathy, macular oedema and numb foot all reversed and diabetes in remission. Problem was that I could easily put on weight at 1300 calories – and I did. Weight went up to 9st 13lbs. I was ‘ in denial’ and convinced myself that I was OK maintaining at 9st 13lbs. So from September 2016 to December 2017 I really struggled to keep under 10 stone and I do mean really struggled.

I was off all insulin for most of 2017 but Christmas 2017 I had to start injecting Lantus insulin again because sugars started to go high (I still had a stockpile of insulin in my fridge). I was devastated and felt I had failed. I kept it from everyone and even my husband didn’t know. I didn’t post it on the forum either because I didn’t want to demotivate anyone.

Luckily I kept reading everyone’s posts which helped and stopped me giving up. Allie and Californiagirl highly recommended Gary Taubes ‘Why We Get Fat’. I got the book – which explained exactly why we put on weight and become insulin resistant. Suddenly it all made sense and I understood it and I stopped beating myself up. I also got the Jason Fung book ‘The Diabete Code’ which was brilliant also. I was also very interested in reading posts on here about intermittent fasting – especially as Michael Mosley is an advocate of intermittent fasting.

On 3/4/18 I got on the scales at 10 st 5lbs. I cut my carbs to between 14g and 20g a day and 1000 calories a day and started intermittent fasting – On 6/4/18 I was off all insulin. On 1/5/18 I was 9stone 10lb. By 15/5/18 I was 9stone 6lb and very happy. Back to the weight I wanted to be. Obviously the combination of IF and under 20g carbs really worked for me.

I started upping calories by 50 a week to stall the weight loss. Still kept to under 20g carbs and IF. 26/6/18 just under 9 st 4lb. 24/7/18 just over 9st. Still increasingly calories but cannot stall the weight loss. Because the low carbs and IF keep my blood sugars good I couldn’t give up either.

20/8/18 just over 8st 12lb. My diabetes nurse told me not to worry as my body would stabilise – I wouldn’t keep losing weight. It does seem as though I have stabilised at around 8st 12lb although if I drop as low as 1500 calories a day I will lose weight.

So maintenance is now effortless and the best part of it is that I have been insulin free for 6 months.

Kazz – I have a similar metabolism. I have to mix up my fasting times otherwise my BS starts to rise. I find it is important to keep my body guessing.

Krysia your experience is so interesting. I am staggered at your determination considering the difficult health issues you were facing at the beginning. You certainly did not have an easy ride. You should be so proud of your achievements and I bet you feel great !

I admit to being apprehensive as to how to continue my weight loss. In 2 weeks time ( at the end of the 8 weeks) I will still be at least 15 /20kilos overweight. That would take me to around 75 kilos ( 12 stone) I find it difficult to imagine ever being 9 stone again . I would probably be happy around 11 stone but it seems a long way off .

I want to be able to continue losing steadily but without causing any damage and I am still a bit confused as everyone’s experience is different . Should I do another round of 8 weeks/800 cals or move on to IF ?. Maybe as you suggest it’ s best to mix it up. I can handle 24 hour fasts and OMAD but I don’ t want my body to get used to that and stock any extra cals .

I am not diabetic but am definitely feeling better having given up bread, pasta, rice etc and the masses of fruit I consumed and I won’ t be going back to that way of eating. I haven’ t precisely tracked the exact amount of carbs I am eating , just following the guidelines and trying to keep to 800 cals.

I am reading loads ( Gary Taubes Why we get fat and Jason Fung’s Guide to Fasting. I want to keep losing for now and find the best way to carry on doing that. I like the idea of using fasting to maintain but I’m not there yet.
I know I keep asking obvious questions but it’s still a bit unsettling for me . I ‘m not rushing things, just trying to be as informed as I can and Krysia your experience is very helpful.

In fact I went right back to the beginning of this thread and read all the posts ( JGwen, Sunny B,and Allie of course…. all the experienced BSDers.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply and share your fascinating experience, Krysia. I am sure I will have more questions , please bear with me xx

Wendleg – I think you are doing everything absolutely right. I have read today on another thread that MM says it is fine to continue with another round of the 800 and several members of this forum have continued with the 800 until they were at target with no ill effects at all.

You have done the most important thing – which is giving up bread, pasta, rice etc and the masses of fruit you previously consumed. So you are well on the way to getting back to 9 stone again.

Dear Krysia I have read through your post several times and I can only say I have such deep respect for you. I remember when you came to the weekly thread in April but, of course I had no idea about your health status at that time, as you say you kept it to yourself. I admired your losses week after week and wondered why I couldn’t get myself back on track as you were doing. I think you have done remarkably well especially as it’s so much more difficult the second, or even third, time around!
I’m so glad you have posted your journey because I, for one, find it really inspiring. I wish you well.

Wow, Krysia you really have been through it. Congratulations on your persistence. Like you I’ve discovered that carbs are the key and I think we have to discover what works for us because we’re all different.
I’ve also come to the conclusion that fruit is a total no-no. Gary Fettke calls it a processed food because the stuff on the supermarket shelves is so far removed from the original. His talk is well worth watching.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=L6LL92Zs5L0&vl=en It seems the inclusion of fruit in our five a day has no evidence base. There’s a surprise!
Over the past few months I’ve been in maintenance, which for me means OMAD which I generally have mid afternoon. Jason Fung is a great advocate of time restricted feeding, and there have been studies proving that eating the same amount of calories earlier in the day is more beneficial for weightloss than eating in them in the evening.
I joined his subscription IDM group but found there were some really weird people, absolute fanatics; if you said anything that challenged the orthodoxy you were savaged, which was a shame as challenge is always good because it tests the hypothesis.
Thank you all for such a lovely welcome back, I’ve missed you all and looking forward to contributing again.
Maggie

I find your comments about fruit so interesting, MaggieBath. For several years I didn’t each much at all (and still don’t) apart from sometimes I enjoy berries, passionfruit, watermelon. Nearly all other fruits give me a bad stomach-ache and until lurking on this forum I discovered it wasn’t such a terrible crime not to ever consume apples, bananas and oranges which are so helpfully thrust at us as the best foods. We should know our digestive systems just a little, right!

Jordana it’s been one of my guilty secrets too (along with eating butter!) I always had full fruit bowls but I never could force myself to eat it regularly. We probably ought to be giving our bodies a bit more credit for knowing what’s good for them.

Eating butter lol – I think you and I understand each other. Have you ever drunk a bit of cream too?

Guilty on the cream! That’s a real trigger for me so I totally avoid it now.

I allow it in my coffee but have to be really strict about how many I buy each month so I don’t overindulge!

Verano – probably shouldn’t have kept it to myself. I would have had so much help from forum members if I had written about what was going on. Knowing that I am in ‘the last chance saloon’ regarding my health is incredibly motivating. Even so I still took 3 months to get the motivation to come off the insulin again.

Maggie – for some of us it is all about the carbs and it seems that we all have a different tolerance to carbs. When I started in April 2016 I think (if my memory is correct) we did not know that some of us have to limit carbs very strictly to 20g and under. Or maybe at that time I didn’t want to hear the message. I was hoping that I was one of the lucky people who do well just cutting down on sugary and starchy carbs.

I have also learnt that fruit for me is a total no no and that fasting is very important if I want to keep the weight off and stay off insulin.

I am so grateful to everyone who posted information on fasting and cutting carbs to 20g max. I am deeply indebted to them.

Very interesting that eating earlier in the day can be beneficial. I do best on a eating window early in the day – actually my metabolism absolutely loves finishing eating at 1pm.

Also – I have to confess that I have an issue with cream. I add 2 tsp to a cup of coffee and have to police it very strictly – and I do mean very strictly. Otherwise it can easily end up 2 tsp in the coffee and another 4 straight from the spoon into my mouth.

Oh Krysia, I came to my moment of truth when I ate a whole pot of particularly delicious cream! The shame 🤒 I’d already figured out that yogurt wasn’t helping me; it really helps to shut out the dietary noise and pay attention to your body.

Krysia sometimes I think we just need ‘quiet’ times to work things out for ourselves. I’m in one of those periods at the moment. The important thing is that you took hold of the ball, ran with it, and got your health back on track.
MaggieBath thanks for the reference to Gary Fettke. I’ve never watched him before so I watched a couple of his YouTube broadcasts, and have to say he has given me a lot of food for thought. I’m sure that my body is suffering from inflammation and I was taken by the notion of, ‘a little bit does no harm, or moderation is ok’. His analogy was if you add a little diesel to petrol each time you fill up your car ….. eventually the engine fails! Mmm, lots to think about.
I do enjoy fruit but I only eat berries now, maybe a couple of times a week. I was surprised that the body can only handle the equivalent of one teaspoon of ‘sugar’ at a time and any extra is stored as fat. If there was ever a reason not to eat high carb food that must be it.
It’s all a bit ‘a rose by any other name’ ….. sugar is sugar is sugar …. no matter what name it’s given or in what food it is disguised.
Certainly I will keep to the forefront of my mind ….. a little does no harm and moderation is ok….. just fooling ourselves …. but not our bodies!

Verano, I do hope that the food for thought (the only non-fattening variety!) triggers a new way for you to come back.
Gary’s phrase “scheduled obesity” with reference to seasonality of fruit really made me think. When I was growing up in the 60’s and 70’s berries had a short season and were a delicious treat; gooseberries were hairy and sour and blackberries equally so. I remember it was normal to sprinkle sugar on strawberries and raspberries were quite tart – not so now.
His explanation of the processing of fructose wasn’t pleasant to listen to; take dietary advice uncritically and you’re in real trouble.
I have so much respect for these professional medics who take career compromising positions to save lives.
Best of luck with finding your springboard back xx

Thanks Maggie. I’ve gone right back to basics weighing and logging everything faithfully. It makes really interesting reading! Fatsecret is now much more detailed and you can see, graphically, in a moment, exactly where the problems are. So now that I have done this for the last 6 days, and Tuesday traditionally being the start of the week for me, it’s time to start over again. My fate lies within my own hands or should that be mouth!!

You’ve inspired me now Verano! Just logged my breakfast coffee 😁

MaggieBath. Your post makes very interesting reading and I will definitely check out Gary Fettke. I was/am ? a real fruit junkie. I used to eat masses before I started the 8 Week program early September.I still miss it but only allow myself mixed berries now. I struggle accepting that fruit is anything but good for me but the amount of sugar is a shocker. I would really find it hard to give it up totally. Much harder than foregoing bread or pasta.

Need to read up a bit more.

All the best Verano ! Krysia, your posts are incredibly helpful.Thank you ! xx

Wendleg I first realised something was wrong when I was drinking fruit syrup and my blood pressure went through the roof – so I went back to wine! This was a couple of years ago, but I never joined the dots; we’ve been told for so long that fruit is good for us that I assumed I was an anomaly.
It’s unsettling discovering how badly we’ve been advised.

Hi Wendleg,

I have been taking a little time out to think about all sorts of things, but meant to reply to you earlier. You mentioned about doing a second round of 8 weeks of 800 cals, but also mentioned that you don’t currently count carbs. My advice to you would be to move on to counting carbs if you want to continue with more rounds so that you can be sure you are not doing damage to your metabolism. – Have you heard about the research into the long term impact of the diets on the program The Biggest Loser. – Basically the reason they never have a reunion is simply because counting calories while still eating carbs has caused their body to reduce their metabolic rate by 500 plus calories a day so the only one who hasn’t put weight back on is one who had bypass surgery after then end of the program.
If you are in ketosis, so have your insulin levels low enough that your body can access your fat stores as it wants then your thyroid system will not respond to a low calorie diet by cutting your metabolic rate. – If you add the app fatsecret to your mobile phone, all you have to do is enter what you plan to eat before eating to get the figures on carbs. – Most experts recommend going below 20g of carbs a day, and if you only need to do this for a few weeks to finish your weight loss program it really isn’t the end of the world to modify your diet to be low carb for a short period of time and saves the risk of doing long term damage to your metabolism.

JGwen that is such good advice – well spotted 🙂

Hi MaggieBath,
I meant to come back to your post about if OMAD effects metabolism or not, sorry for the delay but have been having a few days deep in thought.
My take on it is that if we keep our carbs low enough to be in ketosis having OMAD doesn’t have an impact on metabolic rate. – However, ensuring that someone long term is eating low enough carbs to achieve ketosis and weight loss is not easy in practical term.
When you read Jason Fungs articles and particularly an article written by Megan Ramos which describes many of their clients, in practice they are working at their clinic with people who have a whole bunch of reasons to struggle with sticking to very very low carb diets and have a lot of weight to loose.
Its not going to be easy to work out the right level of carbs for each person, there are the complexities of how insulin resistant some one is, how much their insulin rises just thinking about food, how much it rises by eating something even if what they eat is low carb.
Then there is the variable of the ratio of carbs to protein to fat in the meal.
Then we have the fact that its not the insulin circuit that changes the BMR, but the thyroid. – So what are the signals to the thyroid that suggests there is not enough fuel available and how individual is that?
If the people were staying in a residential clinic where the food options available were strictly controlled and it was practical to constantly test them to check on their response to every single food combination then it may be easier to implement a OMAD diet that doesn’t impact on BMR.
I can see why in practice there is less risk of damaging your metabolic rate by simply focusing on fasting for 36 to 42 hours at a time.

————————

I have been following the facebook group for Dr Fung as well for a little while, its interesting how they have so many moderators to try to control the discussions, and have brought in the moderator set weekly fasting challenges to try to water down the bragging of the 5 to 10 day fasters. – The first time I tried to do a 3 x 42 hour fast over a week I really struggled with brain fog, but I have found that having coffee with cream makes it possible for me to fast without adding hours to my working day because my brain has dropped down a gear or two.

Hi Wendleg I just wanted to add a little more to JGwen’s response to you. I am currently getting back to weighing, logging and counting my carbs and calories and the figures make interesting reading. On Tuesday I had 1295 calories and 42g carbs, Wednesday was 750/49 and yesterday 892/26. So unless you are actively counting carbs you don’t really know your carb consumption and you could possibly damage your metabolism, in the long term.
The basis of the ‘modern’ way of thought is that simple carbs are the problem when it comes to permanent weight loss. So I guess you really need to count them. I decided to start drinking more flavoured water using lemon or lime. I was stunned to find a 6cm diameter lime has in excess of 7 carbs, who would have guessed! Anyway, if you are aiming for 20g of carbs a day a lemon or lime seems almost as decadent as a cream cake, in fact the cream might just be a better alternative!

Thanks so much for taking the time to reply to me JGwen , Verano and Maggie Bath.
I definitely limit carb intake ( fortunately I haven’ t had cravings) but I do need to be more precise about counting my intake. I am more aware of how much protein I am eating but if I load up my plate with lettuce, tomato, avocado, cucumber , fennel etc it’s healthy but as you can see, the carbs add up. I Don’t eat any bread, pasta, rice. Lots of veg for sure but I will get fatsecret sorted on my phone so I can really see how many carbs I am eating. I have school holidays coming up and I am going to do the 20g carb limit and see how it goes.( a trip to Spain in the middle though to manage)
I experimented with an extended fast this week as it fitted in with a busy work day/evening of meetings. I ate on Wednesday evening and fasted until today ( Friday at 1pm) It was manageable as I got home so late on Thursday night I decided to go straight to bed. The fast was 42 hours; a lot of which was spent sleeping !
JGwen I bought some ketostix to test my wee. Earlier in the week the colour came out ‘ weak keto’ and this morning after the fast it was the darker pink ( mid range keto) Are these normal results ? So was I in ketosis ? I assume it only lasts until the next intake of carbs ?
Thank you so much for your insight which really helps me to sort things out in my head. I really want to succeed and avoid metabolism damage and your experience is invaluable to me.

Morning everyone !
The scales are moving again .I am 4lbs down this week so maybe the extended fast got things moving ?.

Fatsecret is now on my phone and I am counting those carbs more carefully !

Can anyone explain ketosis and BSD please ? I would like to understand how low you have to be (carbs) to achieve ketosis, how long this state lasts and if you then come out of it when you eat more carbs ???
What do my ketostix readings mean ?

You are all so helpful (and patient) with me on here, I am learning so much.

Thank you JGwen, Verano, MaggieBath, Krysia.

i just love reading and watching the YouTube videos you recommend xx

Ketosis isn’t mentioned in the BSD, it’s just become the logical next step for many. It’s triggered by low carbs; if carbs are available ketosis isn’t possible. The presence of ketones at whatever reading means that insulin is not present, ketones and insulin cannot exist in the presence of the other. Your 40 hour fast will certainly have put you into ketosis.
Carbs have a high insulin response, protein much lower and fat not at all. That is why fat is eaten for satiety. It is critical to time restrict your eating as snacking means virtually constant insulin production. For ketosis 20g of carbs a day is the gold standard, though it isn’t necessary to go that low for everyone, it’s just finding what works for you.
Jason Fung is pretty good at explaining it
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tIuj-oMN-Fk
Hope that makes sense!
I’m not clear as to the usefulness of ketostix; the purists say that the only worthwhile measure is blood testing.

Hi Wendleg,
Ketosis is an interesting topic. – I do like to spend time rummaging around on the internet looking for research on different topics and I wondered why I couldn’t find a definitive answer on a number of questions I have about ketosis. Then I read a research paper on the topic and realised that the research involved keeping the people being tested in a clinic for 10 days, taking blood samples hourly, and muscle biopsies multiple times of day. – No wonder there are no long term studies with a wide range of people.
I understand that there are problems with using urine strips long term in measuring ketones, as the body gets used to being in ketosis it becomes more efficient. There are a lot of different articles on measuring ketones, this one may be helpful. https://www.perfectketo.com/a-guide-to-testing-ketone-levels/
As best as I can work out, everyone is different on the amount of carbs and getting into ketosis. So I think the best answer I can give you is simply to describe my own experience and the decisions I have made.
Just cutting out the “big whites” of carbs initially worked for me in achieving weight loss, then I moved on to eating low carb, and then low carb and time restricted eating of 16:8 or 20:4. – As a vegetarian its harder for me to stay down around the 20g target, but because I have a physically active lifestyle its possible that I can get away with a slightly higher average carb intake.
I spent most of my life overweight and occasionally counting calories, and then thanks to 6 months of having to rest up to allow a broken ankle to heal I became much bigger. I am now down to the weight I used to be. If that had been a healthy weight then I am sure that following the BSD principles alone would have been enough for me. However, I am still carrying a lot of fat and because I have stalled at the weight I have been most of my adult life. I have spent some time debating on the two options of increasing periods of fasting, or measuring ketones and trying to achieve ketosis while eating each day. to enable me to continue to loose weight.
A range of different experts talk about weight set point, the point were our other hormone systems try to keep our weight at. The consensus appears to be that the only way to change it is with periods of fasting. Also I am concerned about the risk of loose skin, it seems that loose skin comes in for most people who have more than 100lbs to loose and I am at 88lbs down so far, and again fasting appears to be the solution to that problem.
My own decision is to use Dr Fungs programs to get down to my targets, then currently I think I might move on to measuring ketones as part of process of moving on to maintenance. If the keto mojo was available in the UK I would have bought one, but they will not ship to the UK, it appears that the blood testers available in the UK are still quite expensive. So I think when I move on to measuring ketones I will go for one of the breath testers which would give me the freedom to measure my bodies response to each food type to help me come up with a personalised maintenance plan. But it may be that after time getting used to fasting, I will feel so comfortable with that lifestyle that I don’t need to do any measuring of ketones to maintain my weight.

Thank you so much MaggieBath and JGwen. I knew you would be there to give me your experience and insight. I too am intrigued by nutritional research but I am only at the beginning of my learning curve, hence all my questions.
I am hoping to do an extended fast again this week as it will tie in with another late evening of meetings at school so I will ( if all goes well) fast from Monday evening till Wednesday lunchtime. I will see if I can maintain the state of ketosis by remaining very low carb.

Jamie Oliver ‘s 5 ingrédients cook book has some lovely recipes for salads , eggs and fish. I don’t eat meat JGwen but I do eat fish. His pasta dishes can also be adapted using courgetti and the advantage is that all recipes are calorie , fat and carb counted. 5 ingrédients is easy to cope with. So that will help me keep the carbs low.

I am indebted to you both for your knowledge. It takes some time to understand and ‘get my head around it all’ as it can get confusing at times but I am keeping focused on the prize of achieving that healthy weight. I read Jason Fung’s fasting book and will check out his videos.Many thanks again.

Hi all, my experience trying to measure ketones is that the Keto sticks are very poor indicators and may not be worth our money. It might be more useful to just measure your carb intake — you WILL be in ketosis when you are very low carb (less than 30-40 grams/carb per day).
My own loss was easier the LESS I thought about it — after getting into the swing of it, try just following the principles — it took so much worry off my mind and the weight continued to fall away.