Tomorrow is my first GP appointment since starting the 5:2 plus Mediterranean Regime 3 Weeks ago. I have lost 9 lbs and my average Blood sugar has dropped from 7-5 to 5.0. My BMI has gone from 26.8 to 25.5. I am feeling great with more energy and I’m enjoying the compliments I’ve received about my appearance. It is obvious that this is working for me, but what will my GP say? I would like guidance from her about Medications such as Glycazide, Metformin and Anti-hypertensive drugs that I’ve been prescribed, because of my Type 2 Diabetes. I have already dropped the Glycazide on the Fasting days but think I need to have all my medication reviewed.

I have printed out the Information for Doctors from Newcastle University and have kept a diary of my diet, blood sugar results and exercise for the past 3 weeks, so hopefully she will believe the evidence. Has anyone else got to this stage and how has their doctor reacted? Fingers crossed for tomorrow.

Magiek

Hi Magiek

I was interested to read your posting as I too have been concerned about the response of the practice nurse and GP at my surgery, who are not in favour of the VLCD.

I am in the 3rd week of the diet and for the first time today my fasting blood sugar has dropped 1 unit below any of the preceding results. Hoping this is the turning point. I have also reduced my hypertension medication steadily and finally gave it up the day before yesterday. Then the next blood sugar reading I take has dropped by the 1 unit to 4.6. I’m wondering if there is a connection?

So I follow your thinking that it would be good to have a thread that tracks peoples experience of the EFFECT OF OTHER MEDICATION on their blood sugar level.

Stay tuned….

I hope your doc will be pleased with your results and help you sort out your meds.

I have reduced my glicazide first as I was getting very low by end of the working day. I think my blood pressure is coming down too so may play with that next. Interesting that you found your sugar came down when you stopped taking some of your
meds

Although I didn’t mind omitting the Glicazide, I would be more cautious about the BP meds until I have the OK from my GP. There is a history of diabetes and linked cardiac events in my family, so better safe than sorry in my case. I’ll check it out tomorrow and report back to the forum. Magiek

I think you are right to be cautious. I have a family history of high cholesterol and have not adjusted my statin dosage until the surgery confirm my blood test results (at least). Nonetheless I think it worth reviewing going forward and if I can get off the medications completely that has to be better, providing there are no side-effects.
I will be interested to see your report-back including the GP’s response.
Good luck

I have my diabetic review next week and anticipating a negative response. I tried to raise a low carb diet last year after reading about the Newcastle research. I was just signposted to the usual website UK Diabetes as she didn’t recommend a low carb approach .. I’m a nurse myself and was disappointed in such a closed mind. This time I will just inform them I am on the programme and invite them to monitor my progress and be involved if they wish . I have 2 friends who are mature onset diabetics who now have blood sugars in the normal range. I’ll let you know how it goes.

Thanks Nettyrim.
If your body behaves like mine (and everybody is different?) than you will notice a marked change in your blood pressure if you follow the diet. There is no doubt the foods suggested in the diet have a marked effect looking at the numerous reactions to change of diet. I think the other comments elsewhere on gut bacteria are illuminating and my stomach rumbles told me something was going on!

I was on 5mg Linisipril and after the first significant change in blood pressure reduced my dosage to 1/2 pill ie. 2.5mg. When the BP readings continued to stay low (I also felt a little giddy from time to time) I felt it was worth trying without and have felt better for a week now.
I monitor my BP regularly anyway (3-4 times per week) and my readings have dropped from 130/70 on the 5mg dosage to 108/68 on none.
Let us know how you get on with the Glicazide.

Sounds like the tide is turning.
Let us know how you get on. I’m away at the Lemon festival in Menton this weekend and hoping I don’t succumb to the pastries!

Well Folk, Thanks for your interest and comments. I have attended the long awaited GP appointment and am not very happy about the outcome. Firstly I had made the appointment 3 weeks ago for a specific time which suited my schedule. The appointment was for 10.20 am and usually only lasts for 10 mins giving me ample time to arrive where I was due to be at 11 am. I was not seen until 20 mins after by due time, by a somewhat frazzled doctor who obviously wanted to ‘catch up’ on her appointments. I was anxious about being late for my next appointment and hence my BP was actually raised compared to my last result. Advice was to continue with meds and get BP checked regularly, On the subject of the Diabetic medications she suggested that I carry on what I was doing and ask for an earlier appointment with the Diabetic nurse in order to confirm my lowered fasting blood sugar. She dismissed the information sheet that I had printed and said that she would ‘Staple it to my notes’. At best she was disinterested in my evidence.

I honestly feel that I know more about Diabetes than that particular doctor, so I shall just have to depend on my own knowledge and common sense. Luckily the Nurse who runs the Diabetic Clinic is pleasant and helpful, so I shall rely on her in the future. Other than that, I have decided to ditch the Glicazide entirely and wait to see what happens. Has anyone else done the latter and what was the result? Magiek

Just like my appointment with GP , no interest, l love the bit about the print out being stapled to the notes, maybe someone somewhere will read it!!!!
Got appointment with diabetic nurse on Tuesday so will see what she has to say.
I have been watching loads of programmes on you tube from America and Australia, this idea is not new and a great deal has been written about diabetes so what are our GP’s reading.

Hi Floraellen, You got it in one. I wonder if anyone will be interested enough to read it. It seems that GPs hand over responsibility to the Practice Nurses, but they are loathe to encourage people to come off medications or just don’t have the authority without the medical back-up. Unfortunately the Nurses will then have to convince the Doctors of the efficacy of the regime before anything can be officially altered.
I think it is a shame that this information is not more widely disseminated. I am sure that the Pharmaceutical companies will not want to see the public using less of their drugs, but if Government want to save money on the Health Service bill they ought to bring the issue to the Doctors attention. Good luck with your appointment on Tuesday. I hope your nurse is supportive,
Magiek

Good luck at your Review Garden78. You are wise to go ahead with the regime without medical approval. I think that the evidence is clear and obviously you have had personal confirmation of that. Having naively thought that my GP would be helpful I am now of the same opinion as you. We should just ‘inform’ them of our intentions and let them monitor as they usually do.

Hi i am new to the forum (type 2 diabetic) i went to see my doctor before i started, she wasn’t too keen but said as long as i had thought about it , it was up to me. On the other side of the coin i saw the practice nurse as i had just had a blood test my cholestrol was down to 3.1 lowest i have ever had, so she reduced my medication from 40mg to 20mg hoorah also my hba1c had dropped from 110 really high to 76 that was over a three month period (i had started cutting back before i started the diet) so overall we were both really pleased. On the weight loss side I have lost about 7lb or so, don’t have too much more to lose so quite happy with that. I am 2 and a half weeks into plan. good luck to everyone we will get there

Hi Magiek

Know & understand your frustrations. I’m type 2 & due a review. My GP didn’t want to know & they are closing the surgery too!

The General Medical Council http://www.gmc-uk.org headline Good medical practice :
Dr’s must treat patients as individuals. Dr’s must listen to you & respond to your questions & concerns

All Party Parliamentary Group for Diabetes http://www.publications.parliament.uk list KEITH VAZ – Labour Party , as
Chair & Registered Contact. House of Commons London SW1A 0AA. Tel 020 7219. Email vazk@parliament.uk

I believe both he & Theresa May – Conservative party, are diabetics.

Good to have that info too Think I’m getting militant. All I want is an ear an open mind & a blood test down the road

Good luck keep at it
Eureka

Very frustrating and disappointing that some of you are not getting the support from your GP. We are trying to educate clinicians about the principles and the science behind it, but it is early days and takes time to filter through. We hope they will listen.

Wonderful to see how well people are doing and also how well informed you are. Lots of brilliant advice being shared.
Hope you get to where you want to be
Clare (Michael’s wife & a GP)

Hi Clare

Thanks for your post, we know there are GP’s & practice nurses that get it & are on our side; but not enough yet! We can’t wait 5 years ( at least I can’t ) for the Newcastle uni trial & results to appear. I know my body is better on this diet & it’s my way to go now. I choose to do this being aware of all the pitfalls & with no guarantee at the end

We are the brave pioneers, who have MINDFULLY chosen to help ourselves via this BSD diet with or without medical help. We hope it works. We know we have to work at it., probably for the rest of our (much healthier) lives
Thank goodness for Michael Mosley & Prof Roy Taylor!

I was a cadet nurse in 1967. I’ve known the nhs a long time. Right now it is the sickest patient we have. We’re going to make the DIABETIC part a lot BETTER!!

Everyone , you have made an exceptionally brave & astute decision to join us all on this journey, well done. Keep going
Eureka

You ARE the brave pioneers! The NHS is like a tanker in full steam and takes time to change direction. I couldn’t agree more with your sentiments and sincerely believe we CAN make the diabetic part a lot better. And it is people like you that will make that difference.

Thank you Clare. I think we all need to be a little more patient. We know that it takes a long time for new ideas to be accepted. We have always been advised to alter our diets for good health. Unfortunately too many people, myself included, have wanted an easy way out, in the form of a Tablet. We happily handed over responsibility for our health in order to gain an easy solution.

Thanks to Michael and Prof Taylor and his staff of Newcastle University, we have the necessary information to take back the power we gave away. I for one shall not wait for further evidence and approval by the powers that be. Because I have a Nursing background and enough home tech to keep a check on my results, I dont think I am risking my health. Some may not be able to manage without regular professional help. I think that all GPs should be instructed to make provision for appropriate monitoring of patients who are following this regime. Who will tell them?

I’ts like I said to the wife before I started. (She was saying I would never stick with it)
My eyes are in a complete mess because of retinopathy with all the associated treatment and ops.
My feet, while not numb have a certain loss of feeling.
Next will be my kidneys.
The NHS answer to all this (tablets and Exanitide injections) is not helping enough.
I told her, “If I don’t try to do something about this now, diabetes will kill me within 5 years”
I WILL stick with it I WON’T give up, and any know it all healthcare “professional” who tries to tell me I’m wrong is going to have an argument on their hands.
Luckily I have a medical practise which is very diabetes orientated so the support is there should I need it.

hi folks , went in to get a heart screening test to day and the doc said i should lose some weight was 18 stone , now 16 5 since i bought this wonderful book , i mentioned that i was on the 800 cal s a day , immediately she gave me a lecture and said see your GP at once , you need to lose weight but not this way, you may get keystones get tested for that as well , can anybody enlighten me on keystones ?
and is there a risk going on this diet , 4 week s in now .

After reading all the posts above I feel pretty lucky with my GP. She had seen quite a few of the TV programmes about the Newcastle diet and Michael Mosely’s programmes 5:2 etc and thought it was a great idea and is keen to see how I get on. Even if I just lose weight and reduce medication (as I’ve been diabetic for 8 years) then she felt it would be of benefit.

With her agreement I stopped the gliclazide after the first week as some of my afternoon levels were below 5, though since then my fasting blood sugar has been creeping up and I’ve had a couple above 8, especially when I’ve had beans or legumes (e.g. the spicy bean burgers) the previous day. Not sure if that’s just a coincidence.

If I remain stable this week, I plan to stop Sitagliptin next week (I’m not convinced that’s ever made a difference) and then gradually reduce the metformin. Again – I’ve never been convinced it’s made much difference on its own.

GP has arranged my next blood tests at the end of April, about 6 weeks after I’m due to finish the 8 week plan, so will be good to see how my HBA1C has changed.

Hi Magiek
The crazy thing is, someone put on the Fast800 forums that the research is on the NHS website, yet on that same website they advise diabetics to ‘ base your diet on rice, pasta and potatoes’- totally crazy.
If you can find the research on the website you could show the nurse or GO – though it still may not help if they’re very stuck in their ways.
Penny

*GO!

my blood sugars are at an all time low , i think that is what is really supporting me on this diet before they were 10 12 15 and more day and night , i thought 6 to 7 was good , now down to 4.6 , the last time i asked my doc was it reversible, he said you need to go on a cabbage water diet , and how would you like that !
better call in to doc and get a check over , before i shrink any more . let you know how i get on.

Hello everyone. We seem to be getting great results according to this thread. I have dropped my Glicazide for nearly a week now and haven’t had a reading over 6 so all is well with me too. Sometimes after fast days it has gone as low as 4.4. I would like to see it stabilise a bit more before I reduce any other medications. I think some of us could get a little hasty and I shouldn’t like to see anyone having to call in the docs due to blood sugars soaring again.

Not many are talking about the exercise part of the programme. I know Michael recommends upping physical activities as well as following the diet. I have been walking regularly and am up to 7.5k steps per day. I’m also doing the resistance exercises so I am building muscle as well as losing fat. My general health and mood is improving too. I hope that you all feel as positive as I do just now. Good luck.

Hi Magiek
I was having the same thought, about excercise.
I’m doing a few thousand steps a day, between 1 k and 13 k depending on available time. Also 1 hour of Pilates which I’m going to double.
That’s all I’m doing at the moment.
I’m definitely feeling better in general and sleeping better.
Penny

Definitely exercise is a big part of the ‘cure’ Penny. If everyone reads Michael’s exercise schedule, they will see it is quite arduous. Like yourself I can only fit so much in and have managed to get to 10k only twice in a month. The tip about not sitting longer than half an hour is a good one. Moving also gives you less time to think about food!!!

Hi Magiek
I agree!
Penny

Hello all, reading with interest all this information, I have recently turned 60, ive been diabetic, type 2 since my early 30’s and on insulin (high doses) for 20 years or more. I have started to have some nerve damage to feet, and eyes at one point to the stage where i was unable to work for 6 months. this gave me a shock and i have had to try repeatedly to get my blood sugars under control. The advise i have had from my consultant so far, is stick to a diet, including carbs. A friend told me about this diet, and i have now read the book and commenced it a week ago tomorrow. I have lost 5-lb in a week, and my blood sugars are amazing, even first thing on a morning i am getting readings of 7.7 or 8.3, which has never been the case for years. I have started to reduce the amount of insulin I am taking, to prevent hypos. I have spoken to the diabetic nurses at length today, and they have been supportive of this regime, advising me to reduce my Levemire by 5 units a night so long as the blood sugars keep going down. I am peeing for england, but dont mind. I am sleeping better, but have had severe mood swings, at one point i could have punched doors through windows! This appears to be easing, I hope. I would really appreciate some feedback from anyone who has been on high levels of insulin for a number of years, and how they have managed to keep on this diet and reverse their diabetes. I thank anyone for replying

Hi Ckuate
I ve not had your experience, but just want to say welcome, and fantastic you ve found the diet and it’s working for you
Penny

I was doing the 5:2 (my own fault didn’t keep it up) and got the rolled eyes from my dietitian who jumped in with: Oh a crash diet’.
But I was ready and asked her what she would call how you eat after a gastric band operation.
We get on well so she had to laugh and agree that that was also a crash low calorie diet and was being recommended to me!
(Only I am too scared of the operation – but that’s another story.)

Hi everyone,

Please can someone advise me – I’m 38, T2 diagnosed 5 years ago after my son’s birth – and on 2 metformin and 1 glicazide tablets in the morning and same in the evening.

My question is, I’ve seen a few people saying they’ve come off Glicazide, is this to prevent any hypos and should I be requesting to do this with the diabeties team at the hospital who I have an appointment with tomorrow? I’m worried my sugars will sky rocket if i’m not on medication as well. Any responses are welcome!!

My sugars used to range from 10/11 in the morning up to 17 afternoon, and back down to 9 to 12ish in the evenings. I exercise about 3 to 5 times a week and i’m a veggie! i’m 5,3 and 10st 5lb so i’m just on the cusp of normal weight/BMI.

Since starting the 800 diet 4 days ago (though I did a week at 1,000 to 900 before this and lost 2lbs) they are now around 8/10 in the morning and i’ve even hit a 5.2! – I’ve had steady readings which is really encouraging.

Thanks all!

Hi Speedy. That was a good answer!
With this diet and all of us here you probably won’t need the op anyway. Think of the money and suffering that could be saved!
I was thinking about gastric bands only today. That I feel as if I have a mental gastric band that stops me wanting to overeat and stops me wanting carbs. Because I don’t crave those things at all anymore.
Penny

Hi Charlie
From what I’ve seen on here that is exactly the point, to prevent hypos. As you can see your sugar falling, you probably need less meds. Presumably the team you’re seeing can advise you on this? I imagine it’s important to reduce them, but slowly.
Good luck tomorrow.
Penny

Thanks Penny! I thoughtvthats the case, now to convince the medical people! 😁

I’ve decided to cut out one of the Exanatide injections starting Monday and then take it from there.
Hopefully the Metformin will follow and soon I can be drug free.

Hi Charlie
How did it go today?
Penny

Hi Penny,
Thanks for your support! Well, I’m in between anger and crying! Firstly (after an hour wait) I had my tests then saw the doctor, i said i’ve started a healthy eating plan and explained it and that I wanted to come off medication in the future starting with the Glicazide. I was told that my blood sugars are too high to do this safely – so i asked when would it be safe ‘when you’re having hypos’ was the answer. you can imagine my disgust. my Hba1C was 68 and that i need to get down to 48. When i then said ok , so I will aim to loose a stone or more then she said ‘you don’t need to loose any more weigh, your bmi is fine (it’s 25.6) – (errrrrr – If i weigh less then surely my body don’t have to fight to get the insulin around?).

She then went on to (try ) to explain how insulin works at which point i had to stop before i swore at her.

my question then was so if i follow this eating plan and do the exercise etc etc and i’m still high in BS – what else is there, her answer was more medication.

I requested a scan to measure my visceral fat to be told they don’t do this. – at this point she admitted I was motived and agree to test me again in 8 weeks and review my medication – and to have a look into my antibodies to see if there is something else going on because i’m only 38.

I understand that if my body isn’t producing enough insulin that I may need medication but I want to know that I have tried my hardest to reduce my BS’ myself and give my body a chance.

It’s made me even more determined! – i’mnow off for a dog walk!!

x

Hi charliebee38, I must say I am somewhat concerned about your situation. You are very young to be so far into the medications. I only reached your stage in my sixties, when my weight was higher than yours. I wish someone with more knowledge could advise you. I don’t know enough but please be cautious in reducing your meds. I know it is very disappointing when others do not share in your optimism, but Michael did mention that there are some types of diabetes that do not respond to this regime. You will need to be patient and make sure you check back with the Diabetic Clinic regularly. Best wishes, I hope it works out for you.

Hi Charlie,

First thing is don’t give up. Michael does mention the huge amount of scepticism from the medical profession in his book. I’m just starting the diet and haven’t yet discussed with my GP … I’m expecting a similar conversation that you had so I thought that I’d loose some weight first.

Your doctor sounds reckless … there is no way that non-Insulin medication should be continued to the point of getting hypos. Hypos are dangerous … if you are driving they can lead to an accident and if you’re on your own and you pass out they can lead to death. Did you tell your GP the number of calories that you are eating?

Also, if you are getting hypos then this is counter productive to the diet. When you have a hypo you have to eat sugar quickly to get rid of it.

Your drugs look a bit strange. For me, my GP had me on the max dose of Metformin (4 tablets a day) before putting me on any other drugs. There is a risk with this as some people find that Metformin upsets the digestive system. I’ve not had any problems.

I found Gliclazide horrible … put on loads of weight and had hypos every afternoon. Consultant took me off Gliclazide and put me on Exenatide. I feel that Metformin and Exenatide are far better options as the Exenatide suppresses appetite and neither of these drugs are likely to lead to hypos … even on this diet.

The problem that you have is that the most important measure for your GP is the Hba1C. But this result changes slowly because Hba1C is an average of your blood sugar over 60 to 90 days. So if you complete the 8 weeks diet and it’s a complete success and your blood sugars are fine … your Hba1C test result might still show a raised level for a futher 8 weeks.

I wonder if you might be better off getting your doctor to agree to stopping the Gliclazide and either increase the Metformin or put you on Exenatide or both.

Hope this helps

Martin

Hi Charliebee
That was difficult! At least she softened a bit in the end.
At 25.6 your BMI doesn’t worry her- but if you lost a stones worth of visceral fat you d still be at 24 and your sugar/ insulin system would be working better! But I think she doesn’t know this.
Maybe she ll be alright in 8 weeks and reduce your meds. If not, lots of people on the forums have reduced their own meds- you don’t actually need her permission, after all.
Well done for nor swearing
Penny

Hi Martin
I’ve put a few links on a thread called ‘useful links’. One of them is Jenny Ruhls book ‘Low carb problems solved’
Which explains a lot of interesting stuff about low carb diet problems including hypos. Apparently you won’t faint, your body has a mechanism to give you enough BG to stay conscious, and you shouldn’t eat sugar which will set you off into a high then low pattern again.
I was interested in this because I have ( no meds) reactive hypos and always have. They’re much better now but at the start of the diet it was important to eat little and often.
I agree the doc was way off.
Penny

Thank you all for your feedback, that’s really helpful.

My partner agrees that we are going to look to go private and see how much it is to get the scans and a second opinion.

My Hba1C since the last time I had it done had reduced by 0.5 – that was just me upping my exercise regime – but that was met with a very patronising ‘well, it’s only a slight decrease’ – well, isn’t that better than it going up!

I do agree about the Hba1C could be the same in 8 weeks and that would just give her the argument she needs to make me stay on meds – thank you for pointing that out! But I’m going to be taking my bs’s religiously and keep a diary to show the day to day readings.

But i will book an appointment with my normal GP (or private) and discuss moving to Exenatide (she did bang on about me might wanting another child – which i don’t – and there being another medication i could take if I don’t – so i wonder if that’s it).

I’ve never had hypos outside of being pregnant but if i’m consistently around 4/5 – i’ll just take myself of glicazyde!

I was told by a nurse that a glass of milk and a banana is enough to get you safely out of a hypo

Thanks all!

Hi Clare, do you think Michael could do some similar research into hypothyroidism? This is the first diet which has worked for me in terms of shifting fat and I would love to know if going permanently low carb will benefit all those of us with hypothyroidism. Thankyou for your posts

Hi Charlie,

(This is my first post here, so be gentle with me!)

One of the problems is that when you are diagnosed as “diabetic”, they base the decision purely on your HbA1C level. This a bit like throwing a car away when it won’t go, when actually it’s run out of petrol.

There are several types of diabetes, and whilst type 2 is the most common, there are also LADA, MODY and 1.5. If you are not overweight, the chances are it’s more likely to be one of these variants, than type 2 tbh. The only way to know for certain is to see a specialist and ask for a C-Peptide test which shows if you are actually producing enough insulin.

I have been low carbing since I was diagnosed T2 4 years ago btw!

Hope this helps

TP

Hi Peter

This is (once again) the NHS talking cobblers!

When you consume insufficient carbs to power your body, it swaps to using fat. This is called Ketosis and you get ketones in your urine as a by product. Ill informed professionals get this muddled with Ketoacidosis, which is very dangerous. Ketosis isn’t! You can check for ketones by using Ketostix to test your urine – ketones mean the diet is working!

Hope this helps

TP

Hi TP

Thanks very much for that, after ,my meeting I did actually stumble across the MODY and thought that maybe what I have – I think a specialist conversation and tests are required! I have a feeling i could be insulin resistant and though I think I’m fat (fat mentality) and i do carry it in the middle, i’m only less than a stone away from my ideal weight. I lost 3lbs in the first week on the 800 but this week so far i’ve put one pound back on which is a bit annoying however my BS’s are getting better so that’s the main thing!

I’ve not heard of the C-Peptide test so thank you for that – i will look into getting one!

Many thanks again!

Hi all / TP

So I’ve spoken to a private hospital and whilst I can’t afford a private consultation at the moment , they did say that the C-peptide tests can be done for £63 via a GP referral.

Does anyone know if the results would allow the GP to see if I am actually T2, or 1.5/MODY/LADA?

I’ve lost half a stone so far and into week 5 of the 800 cal diet, it’s defo getting easier – I’m now 9stone12 and BS’s are ok-ish, still fairly high though seeing as i’m not eating alot and exercising regularly. Last Hba1c was 74 which is an increase to what it was at the start of the diet so I’ve no idea what’s happening!

I’ve been chuckling about this
Along with my blood test results this week I was given an appointment for the 30th to discuss them with a doc and a sort of questionaire form. One of the questions is “How can you see yourself moving forward to improve your diabetes?
I’ve wrote “Ignore all medical advice and stick with the diet that I found myself which is producing great results and will eventually get me off medication”

Now THAT is going to be an interesting conversation.

Ha ha Bill that reminded me of something that happened to me years ago, I had spent absolutely ages convincing the dr that I was not in agony with my damaged leg. He had said he had my MR scan in front of him and I must be in a lot of pain. His next move was to say he had been monitoring patients who had had heroic surgery, none of them with an injury as severe and all complaining of pain – so how have you done it?

Answer: I have ignored everything the consultant told me, so I horse ride, ballroom dance and go on two hill walks a week and eat lots of chillies to reduce inflammation.

Then he wanted a 2 week diary of everything I ate and did so he could make recommendations to other patients.

Now you’re in the same position with a different problem