1 hours' fairly intense cardio – is this unhealthy on the Fast 800

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• posted by Dan_F
  on 12 Mar 2018 at 09:36

  

  Hello everyone, I posted before some time ago about the fact that I am a vegan and (long term) think the Mc Dougall (whole foods, plant-based, no added oils or sugars to any food) is the way to better health. I am here because I am on several medications (psychiatric) which help you gain weight. As a result of eating very badly last year I put back on the couple of stones that I had previously lost over about 6 months by the McDougall route.

  I am here because I want rapid weight loss, however and think the very low calorie count of the Fast 800 will get me there, before I switch back to the McDougall route long-term.

  My diet for Fast 800 will be comprised of green vegetables and (tinned!) pulses. The carbs per day are very low by my standards (about 90g) but fairly high by the usual here. But tI fel the combo of very low calories, ultra-low fat and relatively low carbs will get me there.

  But when I put my mind to iyt I like to exercise. 30mins relatively hard treadmill run and a moderately hard 30mins on the stationery bike, with a bit of resistance training later.

  Will the Fast 800 be enough for this exercise, fuel-wise? Or will I end up being run-down?

  If the latter, I might throw another tin of pulses in daily for a bit more carbohydrate.

  (I know Michael prescribes HIIT. But I think that you need a base of fitness before you do that, and I like the feelgood effects of longer cardio.)

• posted by Esnecca
  on 12 Mar 2018 at 09:58

  

  Increasing your carbs into the stratosphere will not get you the results you’re looking for because 800 calories isn’t the key to the BSD. The key is 800 calories composed of foods that are low in carbs, moderate in protein and high in healthy fats. All calories are not created equal. Cutting down calories but continue to eat a high carb diet will keep your blood sugar high, your insulin levels high and your fat stores locked down and unburnable.

  It doesn’t have to be that way. Your being vegan is no deterrent to doing the Fast 800 according to the actual principles of the BSD. Instead of jacking up the pulses endlessly, turn to seeds like pumpkin, sunflower, hemp, chia, sacha inchi, and the lowest carb nuts like macadamias, pecans, Brazil and pili nuts. Unsweetened pure chocolate — 100% bar chocolate, raw cacao nibs and raw cocoa beans — is also a great choice. They’re all delicious, filling, extremely healthy and bring plenty of protein to the table. You just have to weigh and count them to be sure you don’t go overboard on calories.

  As for cardio, I doubt it’s unhealthy, but I don’t think you’ll be able to do it until you’re in a fat-burning state. You won’t get into ketosis if you keep your carbs so high and your fats so low.

• posted by JGwen
  on 12 Mar 2018 at 11:06

  

  Hi Dan_F.
  I am a vegetarian (no meat or fish – and cold egg is uckk ). I have a physically active lifestyle and have been on this way of eating since mid October to loose fat. Down 30kg so far, and aiming for another 15kg.
  This way of eating works to loose fat because it works with how the body switches over to fat burning mode. To put it simply, If you have high levels of carbs in the diet, then the body simply stays using the energy from the food you have eaten. To switch the body over into burning fat you have to have low levels of carbs, so that the insulin stays low and then the body uses stored fat as its source of energy.
  What its surprising to find out is once you are in the fat burning mode, your body isn’t struggling for energy to meet your exercise needs no matter how many more calories per day you burn over the amount you have eaten.
  However, there is research which indicates that if you have enough carbs that if effects your insulin levels, your body doesn’t switch over into fat burning mode, then by cutting calories your body goes into “starvation mode”, and starts to adjust so that it doesn’t need as many calories in the future. – That is why they never have reunions of the people who lost weight on shows like the Biggest Loser. Counting just cals and using exercise to loose weight doesn’t work long term.
  It may be worth you looking at other areas of the forum where there are links to the research I think its called “take a look at this” and looking at some of the links to the science behind fasting on the fasting thread to understand the logic/ scientific research.
  I can understand why the potential repetition of a limited diet without the range of pulses you are used to eating sounds so hard. – Frankly, there have been occasions where I have wanted to never see another plate of stir fried veg and tofu – or scrambled egg again. It is more of a challenge for us to find meals that are low carb but it is definitely better to do that. – There are other vegie and vegans on the forums, and some recipes we can follow. – I have started to try to find books and research on the topic because most of the recipe books I can find for low carb are either mainly for meat/fish eaters, or have much higher carb levels than are allowed on this diet.
  Personally, when I started this way of eating I looked at it as an 8 week challenge, and once it was over I could go back to the more usual menu range I used to enjoy. But as I have learnt more about the impact of carbs on insulin and how the body works and seen the results for myself in particular how much more alive I feel on a low carb diet I don’t want to go back. I now feel I need to spend time researching and experimenting to increase the range of low carb meals I can have to develop an alternative way of eating for the rest of my life. And I am sure that others would also be interested in discussing alternative meal options.
  But increasing the carb intake and being low cal is a tweek to the diet which would be harmful to you .

• posted by Dan_F
  on 15 Mar 2018 at 21:42

  

  Thanks for your input, both.

  As for pulses, I know they are higher carb than would be optimal on a low-carb diet, but I wonder if it is all relative. I think I am getting about 80g a day so that is around 360 calories from carbs, and all complex. I am still in calorie deficit so hope that my body will switch to fat-burning mode as a result of that and the exercise (albeit maybe less so than a meat-based BSD).

  I am on day 3 and the 30 min run and 30 mins bike were hellish…Does that get easier?

• posted by alliecat
  on 16 Mar 2018 at 00:34

  

  Hello, Dan. Your stated goal of rapid weight loss, and a desire to return to something called the McDougall Diet
  does not seem to comport with the principles of the BSD. It isn’t possible to rckach a state of fat burning on
  80g of carbs per day. It isn’t “relative”, nor is the inclusion of meat in your diet or the absence of it, or high
  intensity cardio a factor. The BSD is essentially a low carb (under 50g/day), moderate protein, and a relatively
  high fat healthy diet. It isn’t a quick fix, but a way of life that has afforded many of us a template to not only
  reach our goals, but to maintain them long term. I would recommend that you read Gary Taubes book, “Why
  We Get Fat..and What To Do About It” to fully understand the principles of a low carb lifestyle. It transformed
  my life, and may afford you additional information to make decisions that help you achieve the same. I
  wish you the very best of luck. Carbs are the all important consideration, and without that, what is left
  is just calorie deprivation.

  Allie

• posted by Esnecca
  on 16 Mar 2018 at 00:45

  

  It gets easier when you’re fat-adapted. Calorie deficits will not switch you to fat burning mode, and neither will work outs. Low carb intake is necessary or your body will continue to use the easiest route, converting carbs to energy instead of going to the trouble of accessing your fat stores.

  Restricted calorie diets can work in the short term, however, so you may well lose weight. It won’t be as much or as high a percentage of fat, nor will it be something you can maintain once you stop the restriction. But who knows. Perhaps you’ll be the exception that proves the rule and ketosis will kick off despite your carb intake being double what works for most people (assuming your estimates are accurate which they almost never are, in my experience).

  Good luck.

• posted by bof
  on 16 Mar 2018 at 01:52

  

  Replying to Dan_F
  I too am on a psychiatric medicine that increases appetite (quitiapine) and put on a chunk of weight. I am perfectly OK mentally now but have to stay on it. My reaction is to your choice of exercise regime. Using gym cardio machines is boring and lonely, would you be better off running, walking and cycling both of which allow you to experience the outdoors and a variety of landscapes and opportunities to meet fellow runners/walkers/cyclists via clubs etc? Also I took up badminton which is very social. I think these ways you can help your mind as well.

• posted by JackieM
  on 16 Mar 2018 at 06:46

  

  Hey Dan, I know you are very committed to your previous way of eating, but why don’t you at least try the low carb high fat approach? Just for a week? Just to see if it works. There’s a bunch of people here who are telling you (very eloquently) that it works and they are basing it on their experience. You can always swap back to your way if you don’t like it,

  To add my experience, I do weights twice a week (quite heavy ones) and I don’t need carbs to do them. I am rarely hungry and definitely not run down. I lost nearly 20kg with low carbs high fat in 7 months (reached ‘healthy way quicker than that). I spent about 5 weeks on sub 20g of carbs and 800 calories, the rest is non counting but low carbs. Like the others say above, it’s not the calorie restriction, it’s the carb restriction that is critical.

• posted by Dan_F
  on 16 Mar 2018 at 10:37

  

  @ Esnecca – thanks again. But put it like this. At my weight, my calorie reqquirements to maintain the same weight is around 3400 a day. I am eating 800calories, 320 from carbohydrates.

  There are two ways of looking at it. Yes, for this way of eating that is a high % of my calories from carbs. But I only eat one meal a day, in the evening, after exercise. Those carb calories will be used-up fairly quickly, and the calorie deficit in terms of my intake and expenditure has to be made up from somewhere, and surely that can only be fat stores (and hopefully to a lesser extent, protein from muscles).

  With the other dietary restrictions, this is the only way I can approximate this diet.

  @Allicat – thanks for your reply too. But again, if my carb intake doesn’t meet my daily calorific requirements for energy expenditure, fat-burning is switched-on when the carbs run out?

  And surely the fact that exercise has been twice has hard whilst I have been on this relatively low-carb plan means something is happening, metabolically?

  @ BOF – I know your pain, I am on that one. When I first started taking it, I was ravenously hungry but that has settled down. Like all such tablets, though, it seems to make you gain weight somewhat independently of calorie intake. As for the exercise method, I am happy at the gym as long as there are quizzes on the TVs to watch as I go, so it’s not too bad!!

  @ JackieM – If I could, I would, but I am not sure a proper low-carb approach is possible with veganism. I’ll see what I can find.

• posted by EC
  on 16 Mar 2018 at 11:30

  

  Hi Dan_F
  I’m going to take a stab in your direction here and suggest that (on my lesser experience than many here), that a higher carb, moderate fat and low protein approach can also work. The BSD book does not actually suggest VERY low carb, just reasonably so, but many of those on these forums which experience with insulin resistance have found that very low carb does switch the body into ketosis (fat burning) …but if you’re not insulin resistant, it may not be as necessary

  I’ve recently done the Fasting mimicking diet as proposed by Prof Valter Longo which is variably between 60-80g carbs, moderate (non-animal) fats and low protein but very low calorie (700 daily for 5 days) and I’ve lost weight easily on this regime. However, it is for a much shorter time frame so not sure results wise how it would go longer term. On BSD I generally try to keep carbs below 50 (I’m vegetarian, not vegan but I do agree pulses are a great food)…..anyhow I’m still on the journey also!

  wishing you all the best whichever your path!

• posted by JGwen
  on 16 Mar 2018 at 12:19

  

  Hi,
  I have looked into the research behind the recommendations for low carb myself. I would agree with the others that you need to aim for lower carb intake while you are trying to loose weight. The example I have seen quoted is the experience over years of the TV program “The biggest looser”. Where a group of heavily obese people compete with the support of a fully equipped gym and nutritionalists to loose weight on a low calorie high exercise regime. They do loose weight, including a lot of fat, but they never have a reunion because apparently nearly all of the competitors have regained the weight because the amount of carbs they were taking in were enough to push them out of fat burning mode, and into the mode where the body adapts to living on lower calories.

  If i could find a way of monitoring what impact different meals I have eaten have had on my blood sugar levels, I suspect that it would be possible for me to increase the target level of carbs I stick to. – I also suspect that if I understood more about G. load rather than G. Index, it would enable me to introduce pulse based dishes into my diet by incorporating dishes with high fat and fibre content. But I have decided that both of these options can wait until I reach maintenance.

  Without some appropriate monitoring equipment, I have no way of knowing for certain if I am remaining in a fat burning state if I make these changes to my diet. I know there was some research done in Israel about gut bacteria and the impact on blood sugar levels of every different item of food eaten by fitting the volunteers with a blood sugar monitor for a week which took constant readings. Some similar system would free people up to tweak low carb diets to the optimum for their circumstances. I discussed buying a standard blood sugar tester with people on the lists but they recommended that wouldn’t work. I also hear that the pee sticks for checking on being in keto are not reliable. I know that there is one main brand of breath analyser being sold at present and it isn’t achieving very good reviews. So my decision is that its safer to spend a small amount of time, weeks or in my case a few months, living on a more limited diet and making sure that I remain in fat burning mode, than taking the chance that the weight loss is due to the difference in cal intake and I am just making it harder to loose weight in the future.

  It is much easier for meat and fish eaters to have a low carb diet, but my world isn’t going to end if for a short period of my life I eat a very repetitive diet, anyone who has had to eat in lunches in school and work canteens and doesn’t eat meat or fish is used to having only the same option to eat day after day. When it gets too much for me I have a day when I don’t count either carbs or calories, so I don’t risk tipping my body over into starvation mode.

• posted by alliecat
  on 16 Mar 2018 at 12:58

  

  JGwen, I am familiar with the series “Biggest Losers”, too. I read an article awhile back (think it was in the New
  York Times) that did follow-up on the subjects who had achieved weight loss by spending a great deal of
  time under the tutelage of fitness instructors, etc., logging hrs and hrs in the gym. Seven years later they had
  put all or most of it back on. I don’t think the advice they received on nutrition was current either. Life has
  a way of side lining our best intentions, and I don’t think living at the gym is a realistic option for most people.
  Knowing there is a sustainable way of both losing and maintaining on BSD principles, is a miracle that has
  transformed my life. When I began this journey 21 months ago I was too disabled to exercise. I still lost
  14lbs each month!

• posted by KrysiaD
  on 16 Mar 2018 at 22:06

  

  JGwen – I think you have written the most scary words that I have ever read on this forum. You said in your post about the “Biggest Losers” that “They do loose weight, including a lot of fat, but they never have a reunion because apparently nearly all of the competitors have regained the weight because the amount of carbs they were taking in were enough to push them out of fat burning mode, and into the mode where the body adapts to living on lower calories.'” What a nightmare after all that hard work. They were actually worse off than when they started the regime.

  When I started the BSD I was concerned that I would have to stay low calorie forever. Very pleased that the opposite was true and that low carb was the key to keeping my metabolism revved up.

  Allie – reading your post made me realise just how much you have achieved on your journey so far. Well done.

• posted by JGwen
  on 17 Mar 2018 at 08:06

  

  I agree with you that it is scary, the figures I have seen quoted is that on average the participants in the biggest loser end up with a metabolic rate of 500 calories a day less then would normally be expected for their size as a result of their bodies adapting to a low calorie diet.

• posted by JGwen
  on 17 Mar 2018 at 08:22

  

  Hi EC,

  Can I ask about the trials you are taking part in, you mention you are on a fasting mimic trial, and that its for a 5 day period. I am keen to learn more about the topic, I just like gathering data.

  Is it 5 days out of 7 of a period over a number of weeks, or just a 5 day session and then lots of monitoring on the effect and back to a more normal diet during the monitoring period?

  Are they monitoring your blood sugar levels throughout the day and if so how?

  Is the eating pattern during the 5 days of fasting mimic of 3 small meals, or one meal a day, or are participants split into different groups on that issue?

• posted by EC
  on 17 Mar 2018 at 11:07

  

  Hi JGwen
  Its actually a very finely calibrated “diet” which comes in a box for each of the five days…..you can eat in any order during that day but not swap between days, but they do lay it out as 3 meals with sometimes tiny snacks (like 4 olives!)-some people have actually worked out how to get a similar effect using fresh food (the box contents are mostly dehydrated….bit like bushwalking food!!)
  I’m doing it for 5 days every month for three months (one down so far…next starts next Tuesday
  I’ts called prolon and is based on 30 years of research by Valter Longo whose book is called “The Longevity Diet” apprently MM based some of his ideas from the work in Longo’s lab so they are actually complementary. His book gives lots of results from his own trials bt I’m just a guinea pig for my partner who is working with the US team to bring the research and diet into Australia. I had bloods done before and after the first five days, but will wait til after the third to do the final tests
  I monitor my own blood sugar and ketones when I’m doing it, but I’ve never had blood sugar issues so not a great subject in that regard…but it has so far lowered BP and IGF
  hope this all makes sense!

• posted by JGwen
  on 17 Mar 2018 at 15:12

  

  Thanks for all that information EC.
  Please bear with me, as I immediately end up with more questions. – Its just
  Do they ask you to record what time of the day you eat each meal, and the blood sugar levels throughout the day, or is it just looking at the blood test results once a month? Do you have any guidelines on the times of day to eat each of the meals?
  I only ask because I am trying to understand if 70 or 80g of carbs eaten in one meal would have a different impact on the same amount of carbs split over 3 meals. – If the organisers of the research do not incorporate any analysis of the time period during the course of the day when the carbs are eaten then they obviously don’t think it will make any difference to the outcome. – Although having seen a video interview with Valter Longo who mentions that most of the carbs should come from the veg and pulses in the diet then its going to be about carbs which are released slowly into the blood stream.

• posted by Dan_F
  on 17 Mar 2018 at 20:31

  

  @ EC – I agree. I know this is anathema here to an extent but I don’t think that carbs are the bad guys. There is lots of evidence for a very low fat, low protein, high complex carb (whole foods, plant-based) diet losing weight and restoring health. As mentioned, I lost weight (about 3st) on this method myself whilst eating a LOAD of food via this and exercise. (probably over 6 months or so.)

  But I do think that the method here is the best for rapid weight loss, which is what I am after at the moment. And whilst my carbs may be higher than everyone else’s, the intake nowhere near meets my daily calorific need. There is very little fat in the foods I am eating so that shortfall, to my mind, HAS to come from bodily fat stores.

  I must admit I am sceptical about eating onesself into fat burning mode by consuming a high fat diet, as Dr Atkins propounded. To my mind, if you eat 800cal of lard a day or 800cal of sugar a day, you will lose weight. But I may well be wrong here.

  Exercise yesterday was so horrendous that I fell off the wagon a bit last night and decided earlier to abandon the diet.

  But I may give it another go. My thinking is that diet is more important than exercise for weight loss. So if I have to lower my exercise intensity for a while whlst I get used to this, that is better than eating more in order to exercise.

  Would you all agree with this last premise?

• posted by Pancita
  on 17 Mar 2018 at 21:26

  

  Dan,
  I do admire your earnestness, and commitment to your own way of eating. I do, however, I think you”ve rather missed the point of the BSD.
  When insulin levels are raised the body stores sugars. Lowering the amount of carbohydrate (broken down into sugar) will reduce the production of insulin, and thus the storage of energy in the fat cells. Eating a pile of lard will not increase your insulin production, eating a pile of sugar will. While the insulin level is high, the excess calories from your pile of sugar will get pushed into your fat cells. The lard will be a source of energy and be broken down into carbon dioxide and water. Many people will write about it more eloquently and scientifically than I, have a look for some better articles. Or read about it in Dr M’s book.

  Your choice of diet seems a very narrow tightrope which you regularly fall off. By widening, or indeed changing, the rope, perhaps you’ll allow yourself to succeed.

• posted by Dan_F
  on 18 Mar 2018 at 11:11

  

  Pancita, I do get it. It is just that it is virtually impossible to do this diet with carbs as ideally low as recommended whilst taking-in enough protein and electrolytes. And I never became a vegan for moral reasons but because the thought of eating animal produce is totally unappetising, so it isn’t something I can change.

  The fact is that I am still in a carbohydrate and calories deficit. The shortfall is made up from somewhere, which is body fat stores. I , I’d may well burn body fat more slowly than others here who are on a proper low carb plan, but I will still get the same effects. Fat and carb burning is presented here as either/or but it isn’t. It is more/less on a continuum (when I refered in an earlier post above to ‘switiching on’ fat burning I’d have been more accurate to say ‘switch to burning more fat for energy’).

  The (still relatively small by ‘normal’ standards, certainly my own) carbs I eat may well trigger more insulin than the rest of you have. But the carbs are very slow release, which mitigates this. Also, don’t forget that Michael himself recommends eating pulses in the book.

  As for the lard/sugar comparison, the fact is that both will lose weight. The lard eater will lose more quickly. But over time, whether a person chooses the lard route or the sugar route, after a given period of time they will reach the same weight. That’s thermodynamics (Atkins’s ‘metabolic advantage’ is a myth). It’s like this bloke who went on 20 potatoes a day diet https://www.forksoverknives.com/getting-well-on-twenty-potatoes-a-day/#gs.bkN8hDs . When I am at a weight I am happy with I will be eating them again. But there is no doubt that they produce an insulin spike, yet he still lost weight. The reason would have been because he was in calorie deficit. So even with insulin spikes to THAT extent, weight is still lost if there’s more calories spent than taken in. So me on this ultra-low calories diet, with relatively low carbs and insulin levels WILL lose, to my mind.

  The only difference between everyone else than me is that my insulin levels will be slightly higher after a meal and I may take slightly longer to start using body fat stores to the same extent you do. But, then again, the LSD cardio may alter this.

• posted by JGwen
  on 18 Mar 2018 at 11:40

  

  You asked previously if there were any examples of people who had used this diet for a rapid fat loss.
  I have lost 30.5kg, (4.79 stone) since mid October and have another stone to use. I have achieved this by setting a target of 20g of carbs per day, and 800 cals. I use tofu as one of the main protein sources, one serving provides 1g of carbs, and 12.6g of protein. as well as eggs and cheese. I don’t eat any meat or fish.
  With regard to the carb/being in fat burning debate. – Your body is either turning to its fat stores for energy or using food intake. It doesn’t do both at the same time, its one or the other, and its insulin levels which move the body between the two options. –
  There are growing bodies of research which show that that if your body is using food intake for fuel, and you are in a calorie deficit the body will develop more efficient processes to reduce the calories need. That efficiency is not reversed when you end the diet, meaning that after a diet ends people regain weight quite easily. However, if your body is in fat burning mode then the body does not become more efficient so it is easier to maintain the weight loss.
  The way to be sure your body is in fat burning mode and to eat is to keep the carb intake low, because insulin is produced in response to eating carbs. If you don’t want to do that, but still want to loose weight maybe some of the information on fasting that there are links to on the fasting thread would be the option for you to consider.

• posted by sunshine-girl
  on 18 Mar 2018 at 14:09

  

  I dont remember DrM saying there was a limit to the number of carbs we could eat, just the type of carbs. I personally think 20g is almost impossible as when I have tried it my calories were also very low, you cannot give up everything and expect the numbers to add up. Also there is nothing wrong with beans and pulses or lentils and chickpeas, yes they add some calories but they are a satisfying source that fills you up, just like the fats in this diet – satisfying but high in calories. You just have to come to a balance that works for you and it is going to be different from that of other people. If you are losing weight at a reasonable pace with the exercise then go for it. Also you will be building muscle which will increase metabolism and reduce fat stores.

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