HI there, so ive been AWOL again…usual form from me but I think I may have cracked my problem…will report back on this later.

However Ive done extensive research and get lots of different opinions on the subject above.

I plan to go forward low carb (not in keto)….but also high fat.
Does anyone have any good research on effect on the body (bloods etc) doing low carb (50-80 grams carbs) and still taking 60% in fat?
I have some concerns that NOT being in Ketosis and taking in lots of fat may be detremental but dont seem to get any straight answers. I am planning on doing it and having my blood tested but wondered if there could be anything else that may be affected in anyones opinion?
Thanks Txxx

Hi Tululah
Someone else has just mention Tim Noakes recently on the Optomistic in October section of the forums.
In this video at about the 50 minute mark, Noakes shows a study that was LCHF at about 60% fat, with very good results. The whole video is interesting, but a bit long in parts. Anyway you may like to take a look.

http://lowcarbdownunder.com.au/tim-noakes-video/
And lots more on his website. https://thenoakesfoundation.org/news/videos
M

Thanks so much Merry Melba for your reply. Sorry for very late reply back!
I do love Tim Noakes and have read quite a lot about low carbing and ketosis (ive been messing around with it for a couple of years) but Im trying to find specific infomation on how much fat I should intake if Im not in ketosis (say taking in 50g carbs and around 1300 calories) – basically whether i should drop it or continue exactly the same as if i were in ketosis. Its quite hard to find specific answers to questions like these out there. When folk are doing 800 calories as in the blood suagr diet it will be hard for them to have a VERY high fat intake without using up all of their calories so too much fat isnt generally an issue. Likewise from research Ive read it doesnt seem to be an issue when in full ketosis.
I’m sitting in the middle of 2 camps as I find for long term success and only in my personal opinion, 800 calories is too low for me and less than 50g carbs too hard in reality (and 20 nigh on impossible). I realise others can manage fine but Im only talking from my own persepctive.
However I do believe the way forward for me is higher fat as it satiates most cravings. I do plan to do longer fast so that i will essentially be moving in and out of ketosis at different times (which apparantly many people do on a full ketosis diet anyway) I am still losing weight this way and will have bloods done soon so hopefully I can take that as a measure that my 60/70% fat combined with 50g carb intake is doing me no harm even though I am not in ketosis.
Again thanks for your input and Ill report back with any findings!
Best of luck to all the warriers, Love Tullulah xx

Hi,
Sorry I didn’t reply to your question earlier, I had a busy time earlier in the month and then Windows decided to wipe out my laptop with one of its updates, so I was computerless for a while.

Anyway to go back to your question lets go back to basics. – insulin acts like a switch, if high our bodies are in fat storing mode, if low then we are in fat burning mode which is known as ketosis. – If we want to loose weight then we have to be in fat burning mode, so we have to be in ketosis. – If we count calories and but have so many carbs that we are not in fat burning mode, then we will loose weight in the short term. But after a while our bodies adapt to the calorie deficit and reduce our metabolic rate. – Leading to the yo yo dieting effect of programs like WW or SW.

The questions then boils down to, is it the ratio of fat to carbs that controls insulin or just carbs and if just carbs what level of carbs you can have and still be in ketosis. –

Well its not down to ratio, its down to carbs. but the good news may be that the amount of carbs an individual can have and be in ketosis varies widely. Research into endurance athletes shows they can have 100g to 150g of carbs a day and still be in ketosis. While people who are insulin resistant find that more than 20g of carbs knock them out of ketosis.

There are other fine details, for example artificial sweetners trigger an insulin response even through they have no effect on blood sugars. Our bodies are so sensitive to sugar that just the taste of something sweet triggers the release of insulin.

On the other hand there is an area that may be worth exploring, and that is thinking not in terms of carbs, but in the GI index, different food types have a different rate of release of sugars into our digestive system. Something with more fiber breaks down over a greater period of time than say fruit juice, so there isn’t such a steep spike. Could you devise menus with slightly more carbs but slower release and stay under your own personal threshold? Maybe. But for that you would have to know how each food ingredient combined with the rest of the ingredients in that meal effects you.

————————–
I use one of the cheap breathalyzers to AT6000 from Amazon (about £10) to monitor if I am in ketosis – When I started on this way of eating I had to stick close to the 20g boundary to be in ketosis, now that’s improved so that I can get away with 30g of carbs a day and stay in ketosis. It used to take me a few days to return to ketosis after just a small increase in carbs, but now I get back into ketosis much more quickly. Don’t think you have to stay under 20g of carbs for the rest of your life, with time apparently you can completely reverse insulin resistance and as you do your carb levels can increase.

—————

The other option is to consider using fasting. – if you look at Dr Fungs work by having water fasts what he is recommending is getting into ketosis by the simple method of not eating anything. – He does’n’t prescribe any level of carbs on your eating days so there are people who are successful with his procedures having a high fat and lowish carbs on their eating days. – However, if you look at the facebook group for his method many people recommend working to be in ketosis on your eating days because it makes it easier to fast. You don’t suffer from the food cravings that come from eating carbs.

Thank so much for that extensive reply JGewn and I really do appreciate your time.
I do understand the mechanics of ketosis its just that I find it so hard to maintain it and I think there are lots of people out there like me. I naturally come in at 50carbs without too much effort.
I enjoy low carbing & high fat and Im trying to figure things out that way.
I guess many people would think whats the point? Just drop a bit further to get in ketosis? But there is huge diference for me between 20g carbs and 50 grams.
I just want to know that Im not doing myself any harm by having a high fat intake with a 50g carbs AND not in ketosis. I am still loosing weight slowly.
I do totally agree that ketosis sems to be the most efficient way to lose weight but I also think that people do lose weight other ways so you dont HAVE to be in ketosis to drop numbers. In fact the blood sugar diet isnt advocating ketosis for weight loss or am I wrong?
I am definitly looking at fasting as a way forward for me!
Anyway as I say I very much appreciate all of the information and look forward to reading more on here and how my journey will evolve even more.
Best Tullulah xx

Hi, I quite understand how difficult it is to get under 20g of carbs. As a vegetarian its something I struggle with.

I think there is often a confusion between loosing weight and reducing body fat. – For example, at the start I did loose weight by just cutting back on the big carbs. I am sure that a lot of that weight was retained fluid, my legs in particular were very swollen from the knees down and that was one of the first changes that happened. My legs and ankles were so swollen that I struggled to get shoes that would fit and a contact started to talk to me about needing to go to a specialist clinic for lymphoma. That problem completely cleared up in the first few months and was the period of rapid weight loss.

All the articles on ketosis v calorie counting say that if you are not in fat burning mode you will loose weight, but its because your body is using other tissue as a fuel, but after a short period of time your body will adapt to the lower calories and will reduce your metabolism. The blood sugar diet doesn’t specify on carbs, but it also recommends a maximum number of weeks. (8 weeks in the BSD book, while on the forum since the time restricted eating has been added its extended to 12 weeks.).

I signed up to a research study on the impact of a weekly weight training program for women who are 50 plus earlier this year. One advantage of which is that it included a body scan during each of the MOT’s before the start of the program, after 12 weeks of weight training and after 12 weeks of being left to our own devices. From that I know my body fat percentages at each point. I am therefore certain that having carbs low, but not low enough to be in ketosis isn’t enough to cause fat loss for me even when I am being very busy with physical work and am seeing inch loss. ( I wanted to see what would happen if I followed my appetite over the summer which is a busy time of year for me. Just 1 pound of fat down in 12 weeks over the summer according to the body scan, but a couple of inches off my waist.)

So I am certain that for me I have to be low enough carbs to be in ketosis, or I have to follow the (36 to 42)x 3 hour fasting protocol of Dr Fung for weight loss to be equal to fat loss if I want to not be in ketosis on eating days.

Hi JGwen, Thats sounds like a brilliant research study to have been part of! As im now in that age range myself Id be fascinated to read the rusults if they are published yet?
So….I think I’m starting to answer my own questions during this discussion. “why bother going as low as 50g carbs and not going in Ketosis?” Hmmm…why bother indeed? 🙂 🙂 😉
The way I’m starting to see it is that I have the predicament of being 5 stones overweight and to break into that fat I need to get into ketosis. In many ways it is the magic key. KEY-tosos? Sorry!
I can be low carb etc but i wont get very far after a certain amount of time.
Im starting to feel a bit more confident about breaking into the fat to lose some and then stabalising on lowish carb if I feel I need to for a while. In my head im starting to see it like potential covert operations where i can parachute in and out in secret raids. Sorry…. this kind of imaginary helps me!
Can I ask you if you think people who lose lots of weight doing, whaterever diet (say slimming world), are actually going into ketosis at some point on their journey? My sister lost 7 stone to get to her healthy weight range (and has now put 3 back on but thats another story we all know too well). However, a lot of that 7 stone would HAVE to have been fat.Therefore do you think she like other big losers are eventually cutting back on carbs or calories so much that they are actually going into ketosis even though they are unaware? I have long suspected this may be they case.
Nice chatting to you – thanks for your time – think Im starting to understand what I need to do (what i have no choice but to do!) I keep running way from it and trying every other ways around it but actually it just makes sense for me. That way I wont need to worry about calories or my fat intake. Win win.
T xx

The program consisted on once a week going to a gym. Spending 6 minutes warm up on a stepper machine. Then we went to the chest press machine we did 3 rounds of reps with a 2 minute gap between each round of reps.

The aim with the reps was to work with a level of weight which is the maximum you can use. So for example a weight where you could achieve 7 plus reps and you worked towards increasing the number of reps. When you could manage 15 reps at that weight it was time to increase the weight.

After the chest press, it was the same routine with the leg press, followed by the chest pull.

Finally we finished with 6 minute warm down using either the treadmill or exercise bike.

The results have not been published yet for the final stage of the research, but I know that I dramatically increased both power and strenght. (Strength is the amount of weight, power is the speed with which you can make the move.)

—————–

I think you are beginning to get it, I know its not the answer you want, but you are setting yourself up for failure long term if you are not in ketosis, because in time your metabolic rate will slow down.

I like Dr Fungs explanation of a power station. If the train of coal wagons being delivered to a power station are not enough to provide the power output they are contracted to achieve then they can start by using up the surplus coal on the railway platform. When that runs out if they can’t access the storeage sheds where they stored the extra coal from previous months they can start burning the tables and chairs in the staff canteen, and then move on to the desks and chairs in the office. But eventually they will run out of things to throw into the fires and instead will redesign the power station to be efficient enough to produce the required output using the amount of coal that is being delivered.

If however they can access the long term stores, there is no need to remodel the efficiency of the power station.

This explains why calorie counting doesn’t work.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/6-years-after-the-biggest-loser-metabolism-is-slower-and-weight-is-back-up/

If you’re looking to find out whether you’re in ketosis, have you tried the ketone urine strips? I’ve found them really helpful, encouraged by Dr Boz – Dr Annette Bosworth (great YouTube content, and some podcast interviews on Keto Woman podcast). They aren’t expensive, and if your pee changes the colour of the stick at all, you’re peeing ketones, and hence in ketosis. If you test every time you pee, you’ll get a really good gauge of what’s going on. If it never changes colour, your carbs or glycogen stores are still too high for you to make ketones.

Actually, MelBelle, the urine strips are not a good way to plan to measure if you are in ketosis. They work by measuring surplus ketones that the body has created and not burnt. While our bodies are inefficient in the conversion process initially, so there will be surplus ketones expelled in the urine in the long term our bodies become “fat adapted” and will no longer generate surplus ketones.

You can use one of the blood monitors, but they are both expensive to buy and there is a cost for each testing strip.

The cheaper, more reliable option is to use one of the cheap breathalyzer from Amazon. I have an AT6000 which cost around £10 and enables me to test for the byproduct of burning ketones in my breath as often as I want throughout the day for only the cost of replacing the batteries every couple of months. If you search the take a look at this thread you will see posts I have written which has a link to a podcast which provides more information including how to blow the last of your breath into the machine.

Thanks @jgwen. I’ll look into that breath monitor and see what the price is here in Australia. I have read in a few places that the strips aren’t that accurate, but Dr Boz says as long as it changes colour even if it’s just a little you know you’re peeing ketones, and I’ve certainly found it helpful just as an indicator. It’s much darker first thing in the morning. Less likely to be dark in the afternoon, but usually still a trace, even if you are more efficient? But I am keen to keep measuring so thanks a lot for the tip.

@jgwen, thanks again for the tip about the cheaper breath monitors. I had no idea you could buy one for less than $20.

@jgwen, I see that in a couple more months of keto the pee stocks will be really useless.

Thanks Maybelle, Im ok with knowing how to get in to ketosis as I have beenmessing around with it for a couple of years – it was more of a specific question about high fat while not in ketosis but Ive done some more reading and coming to some conclusions by myself. I need to see the full picture of things before i can fully committ and sometimes this can take years of research!

Thank you fro your reply
KOKO, T:)

Thanks again for the extensive reply! The study looks really interesting thank so much for the details.

I wonder about my questions on whether you think ALL people who lose massive amounts of weight or at a least all of their excess weight are at some point going into ketosis (in the case of my sisters 7 stone weight loss on slimming world). I do not advocate low calorie diets in any way and understand the pitfalls and science of why they dont work in general (as hers is now starting to fail) but as you said in your post that you believed the ONLY way to loose fat was to be ketosis – do you think this applied to her as well?
Best Tullulah x

I think that makes sense. You have to have low insulin for your body to start using your fat a.k.a. ketosis. So if you never get into ketosis, your weight loss wasn’t fat?

Exactly M! That’s what I’m thinking. A severe calorie deficit can also take you in to ketosis (not recommwnded) so there must come a point where all big losers do even if they think its just a calorie deficit that’s doing it. Even on something like SW they start to steer you away from simple carbs as your weight loss slows sown. Red/green day idea. I asked that my sisiter exactly what she ate in a day as she neared her goal and it was pretty low carb.

Where are you on your journey? I’ve done low carb and been in ketosis a few times with great results but just couldnt figure out how to maintain it and still have a life…i was also always plagued with the worry that i would do damage somehow as its SO against all of the messages we have had drilled into us. I’ve now decided that keto is the way forward for me. I must have watched hundreds of talks and seminars, read books from Fung to Harcombe to Phinney and studied scientific research from all sides until i can do no more but accept that ketosis is a safe, effective and healthy way forward. Now the hard bit is doing it, sticking to it and finding how i will function in my unique way in and around it for ever more! This for me will mean going from ketosis mostly to sometimes very low carb. I plan to deplete my fat reserves then allow myself a tiny bit of wiggle room occasionally to maintain. (By that i only mean upping to a bit more veg, tastes or hopefully being able to control things after a few gins. The experiment begins. Wish me luck! X

I reckon I’ve listened/watched around a hundred to two hundred talks now. I started this journey in July with the Fast 800 book, after a friend had success with 5:2. The stuff that I used to do to lose a few kilos wasn’t working this time.

When I discovered the Low Carb Down Under channel on YouTube, that’s when I started to be really successful. Jason Fung videos followed, and the Obesity Code podcast, the book. And definitely stuff others were saying on the forum was part of that, and the keto diet thread. I think I just needed to hear it enough times. This is maybe two months ago.

At my starting point, I wasn’t obese but my weight was uncomfortable, I was getting back pain. My breasts got really sore the week before my period. That’s gone now. I’ve lost 7 kgs (off a 1.52m frame) and am aiming to lose two more to give me that wiggle room. I’d like to stay under 50 all the time, as a sort of line in the sand. My fat % is 24, and I’d like to get to around 22-23.

Snacking is still a problem for me, during the second half of my cycle. So I’ve worked out that I can be disciplined first couple of weeks, and then just aiming to maintain the rest of the cycle is enough. I should have this (new) goal in hand by Christmas.

My husband keeps asking (nagging) me about what I’m going to do when I reach my goal. I used to eat and bake bread! I love artisan bread. I need to structure it back in occasionally, but I think it will be ancient grains only. Other than that, some of the changes are here to stay.

And good luck T!!! Thanks for your story. It’s cool to hear someone else who started here and found it was only the beginning!

Have you watched Dr Gary Fettke on inflammation? “Sugar makes you hungry, carbohydrates make you fat, polyunsaturated oils make you inflamed and sick” etc. That’s something I have in mind about the future and maintenance.

In case anyone else is reading this/lurking, it’s not just about the scales for me. It’s just convenient. My real goal is actually to have a flat tummy and fit into THAT green dress (so it’s a goal about inches not the number on the scales). There was a point in this journey where I found scales really discouraging. Now I’m at peace with how I fluctuate up to 2 kgs in my menstrual cycle and even 1 kg within a week. I’ve gained lean muscle mass too and love my new lean arms and legs with bumps.

Morning Mel! Are you down under? I’m in the UK. Beautiful blue skied frosty morning!
Great to hear your story too and so glad you found your path. You are doing fabulously!!
When you say you are less strict 2nd 2 weeks does that mean you are in ketosis sometimes but not always? Im really interested in that going forward and have heard that the transission get easier to the point people dont notice if the are in ketosis or not (hence the need for proper testing I guess?)
Where you fairly healthy before and do you drink alcohol?
Im coming from a place where Im 5 stone overweight, suffering from a pain condition, have quite a young family, working, large busy social life and just about to hit 50. However!!! When I can, I eat organic , cook from scratch, love making up recipies and make sure everyone in the family gets a good balance of what they need (well…except for the dreaded sugar of course.) We have no vegetable oils in the house (did lots of research into that last year and was so shocked) we only use pure fats, full fats, oily fish, good grass fed beef etc. My downfall is my snacking also and general emotional eating when I counteract ALL of that by stuffing crisps (full of veg oil 🙁 ) and general sugar laden fast food junk into my face. 🙁 I suspect at 16+ stone I am on my way to diabetes. NOT good. I have my bloods done fairly regulry and have no major poblems so far but at times I feel I’m about a mars bar away from it all starting
So! Thats me. I have a party tomorrow night and then thats it, Goodnight Vienna. I have a holiday in a few weeks and I want to be in ketosis by then. I’m not going to let anything stop me. No party, no holiday, no night out, no wedding, no birthday, no christmas is enough of an excuse anymore. My challenge is finding how to still navigate it all while in ketosis, stay sane and not chase a blowout.
I enjoy experimenting with Keto baking – not sure if you have made any keto bread? I use almond flour, or flaxseed or coconut or psyllium. Flaxseed wraps are great and only 1 gram carb, I think flax is amazing stuff when you read about he properities and benefits in all of Scientific trials that have been done. I bet if you are a breadmaker you could come up with a great Keto alternative! Challenge???? :):):)
Anyhoo Mel, Thank you for being my ‘offloading’ buddy this week! Its amazing how we write these things, not only to someone else, but to ourselves. I think it helps to get all of the information in our heads a bit straighter and the action planning into sharper focus!

I wonder if you have seen this about fibre not being needed? Interesting. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KrmpK_Lckg
Take care and Have the best day – Tully xxxxxx

Hi T!
Yep, I live near Sydney.
I’ve found that not snacking and TRE is much easier in the first half of my cycle, and that I have far less willpower in the second half of my cycle. So I try to fight the instinct to eat between meals, but also try to have better expectations, hence not trying so hard to lose weight after the first couple of weeks.
I only found out about vegetable oils and inflammation a month ago. I got rid of them all right away. I can’t believe that so many products have canola in. Rice crackers, hommus, just about anything.

Yes, I had watched a lecture about fibre, by Dr Paul Mason. It’s unbelievable. https://youtu.be/xqUO4P9ADI0
Thanks for the encouragement. I love sharing resources. I think I was pretty fit before I started the diet, but I’m much fitter and stronger now.