Haha well that should do it! I don’t get to sit much on the days I have the kids with me.
My son still isn’t walking and is now 11kg!! It’s working my arms to carry him around. And it’s a shock to think that I was myself carrying an extra 15kg of fat on me all the time.
We will have so much energy once we’ll have disposed of the extra luggage that we are carrying day and night with us.

Hi everyone,

Can I join you? I am 21 days into the Fast 800. I was planning to only do two weeks but have carried on as it’s so much easier than I thought…
I didn’t think I was losing anything until about two weeks in and I got on the scales – apparently to have lost half a stone literally overnight! Have lost a total of 10lb so am really pleased.
I have been concentrating on calories mainly but I know I need to focus on reducing carbs more as they are everywhere…. That will be my focus for week 4.

Great to join you all. Xx

Hi Tazza!! Welcome! Of course you can join our group of newbies 🙂
I have been on the fast 800 for just over 3 weeks now. It’s like routine nowadays! I’m going to do this for 8 weeks then have a sensible break for a week in Bali and back at it till I get to goal weight. Do you know if you’re in ketosis Tazza?
Speak soon!

Count me in I started on Monday so still early stages.

Feeling a little dizzy this morning to be honest but reading the thread above should I be having some carbs as I have cut them out completely and have just been having protein and veg. The only fruit I have had is berries with my yogurt.
When you start how much carbs do people eat. I was thinking of making a pizza out of a wholemeal pitta bread this weekend as a treat, is this a good idea?

Sharan7

I have been jumping out of bed over the last couple of nights with cramp, is this related to the Fast 800?? If so how do I stop it

Sharan there are carbs in vegetables and berries so you are having some. Try myfitnesspal or fatsecret to see how many carbs are in various foods.
Most people start between 30 to 50g of carbs but some people need to drop to 20g or less.
Wholemeal pitta isn’t a great idea. Check out the carbs. There are some good recipes with a cauliflower base. Check out the dietdoctor website which has great graphics of low to high carb foods and lots of recipes.
Apparently a small bar of soap in the bed stops cramps. I don’t know why and I’ve never tried it but it does work!
Good luck and enjoy your journey.

Cramp is a sign that you need to increase your electrolytes. – When we cut out the carbs our bodies release stored water. The kidneys release salt with that water so unless you take in enough salt in your diet you will suffer problems due to low electrolytes. I keep a bag of pink Himalayan salt by the side of my bed and dip my finger in it and lick the salt off if I get cramps.

Welcome Sharan! Happy to have you on board 🙂
Yes Proteins and veggies is all I’m having these days and I still manage to eat 10-20 he of carbs per day. Also don’t forget to have lots of fat, that’s what will keep your hunger at bay

Sharan, fatsecret and myfitnesspal are free apps you can add to your mobile phone. You may find fatsecret is better because it gives you the figures for carbs for veg and fruit minus the fibre, (where as some systems only provide the number of grams of fibre and sugar combined. )

Sharan listen to JGwen she’s very knowledgeable. I think the soap remedy is for restless legs. Sorry!

It’s day 1 of TTOM for me today and I was ravenous. I felt like I needed to carb load. Resisted that urge and instead I fat loaded lol
At least I’ll still be in ketosis and I probably stayed below 1,400 kcal for the day so not bad.
Im always excited when the wkd comes around as Sunday morning marks the end of another week on the fast 800 and this data crazy mama can’t wait to log her results 😅😅

Thanks Louise!
How do I know if I am in ketosis?

Verano I got the idea of the wholemeal pitta pizza from the Fast 800 recipe book.

Yes, there are carbs in berries and vegetables too. Most days, I hit the 40g of carbs mark. I only lost 1/2 lb this week, but I did eat a lot of cocktail sausages as it was also TOTM for me. I had such low mood too, which isn’t like me, but I am back to normal this week.

I am hoping that next week is a better weight loss for me. It’s slightly worrying when my work colleague who by my standards, really has nothing to lose has lost 8lbs in the same time as me. We have Flabuless club at work, which is helping.

When we all talk about keeping to 20g of carbs a day. Are you all talking net carbs? I’m trying to adjust to this concept.

I am still drinking tea and have substituted milk for Cashew milk, which is the only dairy free milk that I’ve found works in tea. I have found that coconut milk for coffee is great.

I would omit the wholemeal pitta bread. My colleague at work had made her own keto bread with almond flour and it looked good, so I might try and make this. Although not sure what carbs are in it.

Keep going everyone.

JGwen Thanks I already had myfitnesspal but I have just downloaded fatsecret. I am following the fast 800 but still going to my Slimming World group for support and weighing every month

Welcome WELCOME, Tazza! Some members of our community use a breathlyizer to detect ketones, but if you don’t want
to go that route, if you pull your carbs down to <20g, then you can be reasonably sure that you are in a ketogenic state
and are burning your own fat for fuel, rather than glycogen. I’ve been living this lifestyle for several years, and when I
first entered ketosis, I recognized it by a metallic taste in my mouth (which doesn’t last long) and a huge spike in energy.
Feeling hungry all the time becomes a thing of the past, too. It’s miraculous! Best of luck to you 🙂

Allie

Can someone explain to me why the wholemeal pitta bread pizza is in the Fast 800 cook book but people are recommending not to have pitta bread, confused?

Hi again Sharan7 🙂 Maybe it depends on how many CARBS are being considered each day. Some are doing <20 some are at < 50 or more depending on each individuals reason and what works for their body’s purpose. My blood sugars climb on carb as a rocket launcher 🙂 While I can source a bread with 2% carb per slice – and befor BSD used to toast it – add lashings of REAL butter and pile on scrambled eggs . . . oh yummmmmm – I now choose to do without altogether and you know what . . . I dont miss it!!! Mindset and stubbornness can defy regime . . . its up t us 🙂 So maybe go with the flow of your own personal needs according to your reasons for doing the change your life WoE 🙂 Quack! Quack! Hope this helps answer 🙂

Hi Sharon, those of us who are insulin resistant have learned that Mosley’s recipes contain more carbs than we can eat and
still lose weight at a dependable rate. It’s best to avoid bread in any form, rather than looking for low carb “substitutes”.
When you avoid it long enough, you won’t be interested in eating it any longer. Tastes do dramatically change with this
WOE. Maintenance is the real end game…It’s a mindset really, and coming to terms with the fact that bread is part of our
past, and not part our healthy future. 🙂

Personally, I know that bread will be part of my healthy future, it’s a very big part of my culture and identity and I know it can be a part of a balanced diet.
I was listening to a podcast with Jason Fong the other day and he explained how most of his patient wouldn’t/couldn’t cure white rice from their diet and yet were having great success at his clinic.
Anyway, that’s going to be a discussion way further down the track once maintenance is the issue 🙂
Tazza, if you keep your carbs at or below 20gr per day you’ll be in ketosis after a couple of day. I also had the metallic taste in my mouth and experienced the keto flu – dizzy and headache. It passed after 2-3 days. Since then, I have heaps of energy and no hunger, so I know I’m still in ketosis.
Sharan, I haven’t checked where is that recipe in the book but maybe it’s a recipe for the 5:2 phase rather than the 800 calories phase?
NDR I love the sound of your flabuless club at work. Tell me more!!
Yes I only count net carbs.

That makes sense that the pitta pizza is part of the 5;2. Thanks

@louisekangooroo – Flab-U-Less is a group that’s been set up by a couple of ladies and they run it a bit like Slimming World. We put in £2 a week and then just before Christmas we get it back, so works as a bit of a saving tool. It might not get me much, but it will be nice to have a little something back at Christmas. We weigh in every Wednesday and we get ‘Slimmer of the week’ or ‘Half Stone’, ‘Stone’ weight loss certificates. It’s actually really motivating me at the moment, although I started this diet on a Monday, so I allow myself 2 weigh-ins per week now.

We did one a few years back that was similar, but the person that lost the most weight, got all the £2 we put in and it didn’t really seem fair as some had more to lose than others.

Glad you’ve re-confirmed the net carbs for me as I was literally wondering how anyone could stick to 20g of carbs a day.

Hi again, Tazza! Getting into ketosis can take anywhere from 3 days to 2 weeks, for the more insulin resistant of us.
It will happen though, I promise, if you stay clear of the white stuff 🙂 It’s really helpful to count your carbs when you begin
though, so you have a benchmark to work from. You may not need to drop below 50g, but the experienced BSDers here
often find that they need to go lower. Best wishes that you will be one of the lucky ones who doesn’t need to do that. 🙂

I’m curious, Louise…What is a healthy culture of eating bread for those with pre-diabetes or type2? Insulin resistance develops
over a period of 10 years or so, and many dedicated members of this community have been doing extensive research in
an attempt to reverse it. The jury is still out on that one. JGwen is a brilliant researcher, and she’s been giving it a lot of
consideration over the year and a half that it’s taken her to successfully discard 100lbs.

Tazza, a book that is often recommended here is Gary Taubes “Why We Get Fat..and What to Do About It”. It gives a
full account of what insulin resistance is and what to do to combat it. I read it very early on in my journey, and it changed
the way I looked at our food supply forever. It’s available on Amazon, but I was able to reserve it at my local library. You
may be able to do the same. Welcome again to all newcomers! There are many experienced BSDers on this site, and it’s
our pleasure to answer any questions or concerns that you may have. Just shout out, and one of us will instantly be
by your side!. There is a steep learning curve associated with this way of eating, and if you participate or just read
the Week at a Time thread, you will find us there. Newbie threads like this one are fun, but not generally where you will
hear the voice of experience. If you stop by, I can assure you of a very warm welcome 🙂 🙂 🙂

Have spent ages going through all these wonderful and informative posts!
Am a newbie and only on Day 5 but feel so supported already by just reading on this forum! 👏🏻
Thank you and glad to be a part of it 🤗x

Welcome Christine and know you are most welcome to add to, vent, ask and contribute as you take on this adventure 🙂 It has some amazing revelations in store for you 🙂 and the invaluable wisdom of all who venture here, will always be there for support. All the very best! Quack! Quack!

A very warm welcome from me, too, Christine! I’m happy that you are feeling at home here…This is generous community,
and no one makes any judgements here. We are glad to have you onboard, as we travel this road together. Duckie
is right, this is an adventure! I look forward to you sharing your triumphs along the way 🙂

Allie

Keep going everyone. It’s so helpful to read all your tips and experiences. I love the idea of dressing like the French to stay thin. I am a hareem pants/leggings wearer more and more and you’re so right louisekangaroo it is a downward spiral. So update here, I weighed after three days and had lost 2lb. I wasn’t wowed but wasn’t put off either, but I’ve stayed off the scales for the rest of the week. First week is now done and I’m a going to weigh in on my mum’s scales tomorrow (day 9) but overall I feel much better/more energetic and a little slimmer in the waist and face, though probably only mum or I would notice. That for me is good enough for week one though. I highly recommend the carbonara with courgetti spaghetti. It was a real treat tonight and I didn’t feel cheated without carbs at all. I am not missing them, so that has to be a good thing, and I have even managed to give away the apple cake and cheese straws that my lovely neighbour bakes for me to keep me fed as a ‘new mum’. I don’t have the heart to tell her I’m not eating them and I will no doubt have the odd bite in future when I am at goal. For now though, I feel loads better and as though this is the diet for me. I’m going for walks when my steps are low, something I wouldn’t have bothered to do late at night after Baby is asleep. And I am no chef but I’m managing the quicker, easier recipes in the dedicated recipe book. Had a sweet craving yesterday but it’s passed. For now crudités and mackerel pate are my saviours. How many steps do people aim for? I know book says to up your own gradually but I would really struggle for time to do much more than I am now.

Hi I lost 2 1/2 stone in 2017 following 800 cal 50g carbs then got distracted as I felt so much better in myself ( really needed to loose another 14lbs to 20lbs ). I continued with BSD principles but gained 7 ish lbs, finally decided for health reasons really need to focus and finish what I started. I’ve read the various forums over the years but hope joining in will help me finish the journey.

Welcome Christine and welcome back, Jess!
Hi EmandMum – I think given that you have a new baby, any number of steps is fine! I don’t personally record steps but am doing body weight exercises at home which might work for you when baby is asleep? If you’re interested, let me know and I can share what I’m doing 😊

Hi Kafin, I’ve been looking at body weight exercises as I really need to start to do more re than think about loosing weight … not to keen on facing a gym at the moment how are you getting on?

I totally get that about the gym and I quite frankly, I can’t afford it. I do have some kettle bells and weights at home so I use those but Elky (another poster, not sure if she’s on this thread – try the weekly thread as well as lots of experienced people are on that and a great resource) and I have committed to doing a workout to muscle failure, several times a week. It’s just a few exercises and you do them very slowly until you can’t do anymore (hence muscle failure) but right now, it’s really only taking me about ten minutes which is very workable! I do a plank, full sit-ups, wall sits, push-ups (modify accordingly), squats and some bicep and tricep stuff with the weights. I was supposed to add a couple of sprints this week too (like a HiiT workout) but umm, I didn’t/ 😬
If you search for Californiagirl in the search function, you’ll find her post on one of the past weekly threads about the success she’s having with working to muscle failure. The only caveat is that she’s very fit and works out a lot more and harder than I do, so no surprise she’s getting such great results!

Dr Ted Naiman gives a very good explanation about what working to failure does in this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RlYXb1xs86U
and here are some of the exercises in this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c57p605PDZc
( I don’t do pull-ups because I don’t have anywhere in my house to do them. Also, I can’t do them so that’s working out nicely for me 😊)

Hi Kafin – i hate going to the gym and tend to perspire afterwards. I have started to do the following which are really good and can be done anywhere (you can look up how to do each exercise on Youtube) I try to do mine in the morning. The important thing is to start really slowly but you will notice a difference really quick. To begin just do as many as you can and only 3 times a week and then increase to what works. (I say 10 but for ALL of these i started with much less)
10 squats
10 Lunges (each side)
10 press ups( i started doing 2 !!)
10 mountain climbs
10 squat jumps
10 tricep dips
10 shoulder bridges
10 Squat jumps
10 bicycle crunches

Thanks, Eric – sounds along the same lines of what I’m doing! Are you doing them to get to muscle failure or focusing on increasing what you can do? I loathe mountain climbers – seems like by the time I’ve finished, the act of doing them almost takes my tee shirt off over my head! Just thankful you didn’t include burpees

Welcome Christine and Jess to our newbies thread! We’re all going through the same struggles and discovering what works and what doesn’t for each circumstances 🙂
And as alliecat mentioned we can jump in the weekly thread for more advanced topic.
I’m finishing up my 4th week today and I’m still very much focusing on finding yummy recipes that keep me under 800 cal and 20gr carbs.
Em thanks for touching base and well done on your progress! Can’t wait to hear about your discard. I’m sure you have done well considering your slimmer feelings
And thanks for that zucchini pasta recipe, I will try something along those lines!
Speak soon!

How young is your baby Em? As a French woman, I would strongly suggest that you first do a proper pelvic floor training esp if you had a vaginal birth.
All the suggested exercises like plank, sit ups, squats and jumps 😱 can be quite dangerous if done on a weak pelvic floor. So make sure these muscles are strong and engaged 😁

I knew Id forgotten one of the exercises – i hate burpees

Me too, Eric. And I don’t know why they’re called burpees. More like vomitees after I’ve finished 🤮🤢

Thanks for the links Kafin and Eric for the list of exercises. I’m going to plan time in this week and start. I’ve got an exercise bike gathering dust in the garage and some hand weights somewhere I just need to give it a go. Thanks 😃 i’m going to get organised and give it a go

For the last day of my 4th week I had a major slip up. The hubby did waffles for the kids and I couldn’t resist.
Had 2 whole waffles with butter drooling. It was delicious and I enjoyed every morcel. I’m going to try and fast until dinner tomorrow to make up for it as I think those carbs would have kicked me out of ketosis.

I find that i very quickly built up the reps – my key focus is NOT hurting but just doing them comfortably. My other tip is celery salt – I put this on everything which gives it a real flavour boost

Hello all,

I’m still going. It’s quite nice to have a few days to catch up on, some interesting posts. 🙂 Congrats to everyone still staying strong, despite any blips. Tbh, I’m not sure I could resist hot waffles either. I went to an Indian restaurant on a ‘mate date’ and managed to order tandoori chicken without rice or naan or poppadoms & chutney despite my companion tucking into everything. There’s been a ridiculous amount of baked goods and confectionery at work too but I’m fine if I don’t even start. I’m sticking to OMAD and a black coffee for lunch. Drinking a LOT of water & nettle tea otherwise. I weighed midweek and was disappointed to see I’d put on 3lbs somehow. I’ve been trying hard to minimise carbs but usually between 20-30g. I’m not going to weigh again until Monday, which will be the full fortnight. I’ve not had any Diet Pepsi since day one, which has probably been the hardest part for me. I do find I’m still hungry most of the time and I was hoping that would have improved by now, so might have to rethink the carbs. I may have to stop my daily yogurt and berries to bring the carbs right down. I’m making meals from the book but avoiding the ones with bread / pasta etc for the meantime. We’ll see how it goes.

BritinUK – I hope the wine doesn’t force you to drink it again this weekend! 🙂

Good luck everyone, just keep swimming! xxx

Thanks everyone for exercise examples. I will take what I can and modify . LouiseKangaroo he is 6.5months and yes natural birth so thank you for that reminder. I hadn’t considered it. i need to make sure I have the pelvic floor back under control and I perhaps would have launched into some crunches. I’d say it’s 60% there so still a way to go. (My kind of a plank is laying face down on the floor preferably after lots of fizz. I’m not sure I’m doing it right 😉 I’ll do anything to not do planks and burpees!) I can do some of the resistance exercises for non abdominal muscles though rather than focusing on steps. And I am going to try the HIT suggested by MM except I don’t have an exercise bike so will have to use a real bike on my husbands wheel jack and see how it goes or go down a quiet lane like a bat out of hell. Need to get organised like Jess65 says.
Have people heard of Betty Rocker? She does HIT training videos online. I did some a while back before I was pregnant so might dig some of those out if the bike is a no go. She’s very motivational and has her own eating regime too – not that we’d need to confuse things with that but it’s similar to MM – low carbs and carb replacements, nourishing body with good food. Sounds like californiagirl.
Weight loss was 4lb in week one. I’m happy with that – it equals WW which was always a good first week. Week 2 and beyond losses will be where I see if this is better than other previous diets as I would typically be down to 1/2lb loss from week 2 onwards. I didn’t do my waist measurement before I started but going to do it tomorrow so I have them to reference in future weeks where I might plateau on weight. I’ll need the encouragement then. Mum has discarded 7lb so is very pleased.
Ericmakesthree: Good tip on celery salt, I will get some of that in.

EmandMum – that’s how I do my planks! And then I flip on my back and lie there and call it a sit up 😂
Congrats to you and Mum on your discards!

That’s a young bubba Em! I hope you’re getting enough sleep. Good on you for looking after yourself, the first year is tough so take it easy on yourself.

AFM the results of the 4th week are in and as expected not so impressive. -500gr / 1lbs.
However waist has decreased again and given that it’s TTOM I’m happy not to record an increase 🙂
Total discard to date, -6.8kg / 15lbs / -8cm on the waist!

ok – so I started on July 4 after coming back from a work trip and being embarassed meeting my daughter who had moved to Melbourne as i felt so overweight. I had seen MM give a talk a few weeks earlier at the Childrens Hospital here in Perth and was really inspired by him as all he said really made scientific sense. I was 94.9kg and this morning 10 days later am on 88.7 – a loss of 6.2 kg. The things that have really helped have been
1. planning ahead for what i am going to eat during the week especially bringing my lunch to work.
2. the chicken broth has been a life saver and knowing it is there if I feel hungry is great (but the recipe doesnt say to skim off the fat – any thoughts?)
3. Telling people that I am doing it – i have been around to a couple of people places for dinner and they have made an effort to make the meals low cal or at least make is to I can simply not have the high carb high cal options.
4. looking up how many calories are in foods so I know exactly how many I am taking
5. Buy a soda stream and drink lots of fancy fizzy water
Interested to hear any other strategies

HI EmandMum 🙂 Welcome to the forum and wonderful to read your excitement and enthusiastic plans for the “future” with these amazing diet changes 🙂 I use the word because its in the title of the MM book however . . . while the word “diet” is usually viewed as in line with a short term regime for a short term “hopefully” visibly pleasing result . . . THIS is a longterm “total food intake” type CHANGE of “diet”!! (eg: Cattle have a “diet” of grass, (some) spiders and (some) birds have a “diet” of insects). Its not a crash “slimming” diet . . . rather a filtering change of fuel and the resultant changes in body function – like choosing ULP, E10 or Super fuel for a vehicle. Weight DISCARD is a product of less carb intake and body’s fuel source being switched to a “more efficient” type of fuel. Like ANYTHING, if the format/regime/changes are not continued, the end results will revert. (Many here have shown what a carb hit can do! POUNDS go on overnight!!! They dont usually disappear so quickly. 🙂 Dr MM was already a slim gent when first diagnosed with diabetes. His research spawned the book and when shared with others, his pathway of discoveries/reductions in BS levels (previously) unheard of happened – nothing like/no such observed life changes with the “weight reducing” crash/slimming short term “diet” forerunners. As the pioneers here will attest, the “usual” pleasing initial “drop” varies but is mainly a “purge” of excess fluids, hoarded by carbs . . . it is unsustainable . . . otherwise we would “physically” be disappearing at an (average) rate of half a stone a week!!! Like any investment, such need commitment, honesty, and yes, a high percentage of diligence/attention to detail to get things up and running . . . for the optimum result. Reason for and choice of the investment of time and effort is entirely individual. One wouldnt invest time and effort into buying a sports car if you need a vehicle for a white goods delivery run. Dr MM’s “vehicle” is all terrain . . . just like us . . . tall, short, large, small, male, female, old, young – all have an opportunity here to develop optimum response from our (seemingly) healthy bodies – and (for me?) – whatever physical appearance “streamlining” has occurred along the way is a very unexpected bonus. (Remember Dr MM was slim to start!! No weight discard was contemplated!) Now in my mid 70’s, my goal was to decrease my BSL’s . . . (coincidentally Dr MM’s initial target/goal???: why he started the research? ) – and thus avoid medications. He, me and many others here have achieved that (chosen/selected food combination “diet” designed) goal. My BSL’s were 12.9 now 6.4. Along with an overall (unsolicited) 12-13kgs weight discard over the year – 24/6/2018 to 24/6/2019 – and now EASILY maintaining both the hoped for BSL lowering, the unexpected shape change, energy and mental functions boosts as well as enhanced ability to function/participate better – is amazing . . . all with easy changes, no added exercises (which were not feasible (for me) anyway) – no membership fees/charges – quite simply for eating better AND surprise surprise . . . less expensively. Best advice I can offer newbies, or those already on the way . . . look honestly at WHY this new WoE which is a LONG TERM new WoLife was chosen. Dont expect a draught horse to do a race horses’ work – or the reverse. Remember horses for courses – and choose wisely – to (maybe) avoid disappointment – and dont judge the result from choosing the wrong product/tool for the job. Keep it simple and enjoy the ride. WOW! That was some deep thinking for a Sunday morning! Enjoy every minute of your hour/day/week all! Much love to all forum folk – friends old and new – from down here at the duck pond! Quack! Quack!

Hi
I am interested in starting this bloodsugardiet for the full eight weeks. I tried it just to see if I could in January for 3 days then I did it 8 days and have to say I felt slimmer around the belly. I have been eating too many carbs the last month and feel almost angry at everything around me so I know I have to get on something.
I was diagnosed with diab. at 6.8 a1c 3 years ago, started eating low carb (with binge periods off) but my last a1c was 6.3.

Ia’m about 2/3 finished with MM’s book. He sounds very sensible (and looks like that MontyPython guytoo ).

Thank you,
Ulyss

Hi ericmakesthree! What an amazing attitude and result for you 🙂 Congratulations on being so down to earth, objective and accepting of the changes – of which there will be many, both dramatic and subtle along the way 🙂 Stay tuned here for updates from contributors 🙂 and Im sure I speak for many when I say we look forward to your discoveries, updates, contributions and ideas you will glean . Reassuring and helping others where you make discoveries – (climbing up and sliding down here and there is all part of the theme park experience!) – which helped or countered endeavours, will continue to help us informed and entertained as we do our best to travel and stay on this adventuresome path 🙂 A wonderful world is opening for you 🙂 Quack! Quack!

Well done Eric, that’s an amazing weight loss for your first 10 days. You must feel amazing 💪💪
I just registered the same loss over 4 weeks and love my new energy and the feeling in my clothes 😀
As for other strategies, what are you doing IF wise?
Welcome Ulyss! I too am doing the initial 12 weeks on fast 800 then will move to 5:2.
Keep going newbies, we are all smashing this!!!! 👍👍👍

Hi Louise Kangaroo – what does IF stand for – pardon my stupidity