Experimenting with a keto diet?

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  • posted by Verano
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    As there seem to be a few of us experimenting with a keto diet I thought maybe a dedicated thread would let us a share our experiences, tips, ups and downs.
    I’m just starting day 3 so really am in the dark. I never though the transition from BSD to keto would be so hard to get my head around. Anyway, I’ve downloaded the Dr Bosworth book, as recommended by Birdy/Wendy. So hopefully I will gain a better insight into basic keto from that.
    Looking forward to this new journey, hopefully with some other travellers for company.

  • posted by LouiseKangooroo
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    Hello all! I’ve been on the keto plan for the past ~8 weeks and loving it.
    I’ve got lots of nice recipe dripping in fat 😋 fat is so satiating that my portion became smaller very easily. I just can’t fit much in me nowadays.
    What I love about keto is that I don’t have to calorie count for the first time in my life, and that is very liberating. I plan to stay keto forever 😍

  • posted by Birdy76
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    Brilliant idea V, we don’t want to confuse newbies and upset people by talking of other healthy eating on our normal threads.

    I am on the autophagy chapter in the book and it has a bone broth recipe. I have ordered a modern pressure cooker so I can make it in 4 hours and not 48hrs!

    Since I have been on this forum and woe I have had dbl cream in my coffee and I have been cooking with butter. I started with salted as I didn’t like unsalted butter, but I began noticing that it was getting too salty when adding salt to recipes! So I am unsalted all the way now. I have even switched to kerrygold butter as that comes from grass fed cows. It is a little more expensive but it is so much better. I have also just ordered my first lot of meat (sorry JGwen) from a local ethical butcher. All their meat is naturally fed and pastured. Free range and well looked after. It is probably more expensive but again it is better for our bodies. I have a 5kg box of beef,mince, steaks, joints etc, a chicken, pork loin chops, sausages, chicken breast, skin on and bacon, it came to £133 but it will last at least three weeks, if not more. The days have gone where I eat 226g of steak, so the smaller portions mean I can make it last longer. It comes straight from the butcher fresh so I can also freeze it all. Anyway enough about meat.

    Yesterday I started using my pee stix again and as the day progressed they got a darker pink, which is good and my breathalyser was at 0.26, this morning my pee stick is trace but my breath was 0.42. Now from reading DR B’s book the more you get into ketosis and your body gets used to it we will see a decrease in the waste side of ketones so the pee sticks become a little useless. The breathalyser works for longer but obviously this is still the wasted ketones. So I have ordered a blood monitor and I know a lot of people say we don’t need to but it gives you the actual reading of the ketones in your blood and being used.

    You both know I am no expert but I am trying to learn and become an expert in me and my body, if that makes sense?

    So here is to us getting on the right foot and getting rid of loose bat wings and giving our brains and bodies a chance to get rid of the rust🤣. I will be going for prolonged fasts as well. Good luck ladies. So glad I have you to go through this with,

    Birdy 💞🦜

  • posted by Verano
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    Oh dear! I can see I won’t be getting many other chores done with all this wonderful information to digest!
    JGwen that was a really interesting article. I’m so glad it suggests building up fat slowly. I just don’t seem able to stomach too much at the moment.
    Louise I think that’s the ‘crux’ of keto eating ….. eat fat, feel fuller for longer and eat smaller portions as a result of eating extra fat and feeling satiated. Easy really! Just need to get my head in gear.
    Birdy I’ll be very interested to know how the bone broth turns out and if it smells when your cooking it.
    I had no idea kerrygold is made with grass fed cows’ milk. I do like kerrygold but I am using a French salted butter at the moment. Maybe my salt taste buds will change too. I’ll also be interested to see if you find any difference in the flavour etc. of the meat.
    I’ve never used any measure for ketones, mainly because I don’t think I’ve ever been low carb enough to get into ketosis! That is one element that I’m not going to measure. I jump on the scales every morning and do random blood sugar tests but I fear I might become totally obsessed with food and myself if I start measuring ketones as well!
    Anyway, lovely to have company and such great information. I’m sure we will all become wiser and healthier over the coming months.

  • posted by Birdy76
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    V I completely understand about not wanting to get obsessed, I need to as I am experimenting on me for my mum.

    I will let you know how the bone broth turns out and if if it stinks the house up. It will have chickens feet in it😱.

  • posted by LouiseKangooroo
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    Re: ketones measure, I have search high and low for evidence that higher ketones = greater weigh loss, but couldn’t find anything.
    So I aim to be in nutritional ketosis, which is when you have ketones higher than 0.5 mmol/L and hope the rest will follow.
    Although I will def measure ketones when I’m in maintenance to understand if some specific food kick me out of ketosis.

  • posted by JGwen
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    Hi Birdy, As I understand it the pee sticks measure unused ketones, and after a while your body stops creating more ketones than it uses and the results are effected by hydration levels.
    The blood test is testing ketones available to use and the breath test is testing for the waste product of having burnt ketones.
    This article may be helpful as it has links to further information. https://ketosummit.com/optimal-ketone-levels-for-ketogenic-diet/

  • posted by JGwen
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    Hi V,
    I think my nephew is in for a shock with eating. He lives in a council estate surrounded by takeaways and late night stores. Then is coming to stay in a property where the main food shops and takeaways are at least 10 miles away. – I don’t know how long he is going to stay, one of those blood relatives that haven’t really met before situations. – I think I have spent more hours in the company of his previous dog (who was left with my sister in an evening when he was out partying) than I have with him.

    Don’t worry about talking about meat Birdy, I have a farm, I raise sheep (grass fed) take them for slaughter and then sell the meat on. – Its just being autistic I am sensitive to textures. I can’t stand brushed nylon against my skin, and as a child I couldn’t get to grips with the structure of meat. – Even with chicken if you stretch a cooked slice of meat you can see the mixture of strands of fat between the threads of muscle and it was that combination that sent me into a tail spin. I used to try to separate it out, dissecting each cord of muscle tissue from the fat / membrane that linked it the the adjoining thread of muscle. Mother was one of those people that believed children shouldn’t have a new meal until they have eaten everything served up at a previous meal. So spending the time dissecting it to eat just the strands didn’t work as the were served up at the next meal, and the next ….. –

    It was simplest to just slip the meat under the table to the family dog after Mother had turned back to the cooker to dish up everyone else’s. With a pattern of eating all of each ingredient on my plate in order to mask the trick. – Or if it was a meal with the ingredients mixed up, plan in advance to be doing something so I could ask to take it in to the lounge on a tray. Then I could pick out the bits of meat individually to give to the dog.

  • posted by Birdy76
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    Oh wow JGwen it must have been hard at times. I do love my meat.

    I have had a look at that article, I had written it wrong earlier. You know I am like an excited puppy when I find out new things and that causes me to mistype and not express properly. My brain works quicker than my hands😂😂 but thank you as it is a slightly different take on Dr B.

    I received my dogs new food today, as I am trying them on a raw diet. I mean I am getting rid of all grains and carbs and I don’t think it is fair that I subject my dogs to them. I don’t think dogs/animals are supposed to eat grains anyway?? It has turned up in a polystyrene cool box with more polystyrene bits! Not a happy bunny as I can’t recycle it😭😭. But I suppose it had to be kept frozen on the journey. Luckily the butcher I have got my meat from uses wool coolers from the sheep they slaughter!

    thanks again JG 💞🦜

  • posted by Artful Owl
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    Hello, can I join you on this thread please, I have regularly “lurked” here but have never posted much. However this thread seems a good place to come for advice, company and to exchange ideas for the Keto lifestyle
    I, along with my hubby, used the Fast800 to rid ourselves of our excess weight – about 35lb each. We don’t have insulin resistance but he was struggling with higher blood pressure, a problem he’s had for many years, usually controlled by medication. But recently it had gone up and he’d had to take more medication.
    We are now both well within our healthy weight range,( his blood pressure has dropped considerably) and our maintenance for the last 6 weeks is an attempt at a Keto diet. We slowly moved from the 800 calories a day to our TDEE level of calories but keep our carbs very low. We measure our ketone level each day with a breathaliser and try to stay in permanent ketosis. Annoyingly as is typical with a man he can manage a higher level of carbs than me! I know we aren’t meant to count calories on Keto and I don’t as such, but just seeing all the food allowed when you eat until satiated is more than I can guilt free manage! I have to hold my hand up to the fact that I am completely obsessed with it all! However like you, Verano, I struggle with the level of fat that we are able to eat and I’m sure that some days I’m not getting all I should, even though I am still in ketosis. My guilt is still there after years of low fat conditioning! (I used to use WW for weight loss) I do love all the fat but somehow my mind says I shouldn’t eat it! It is a case of getting your head round it all! Pork crackling, for goodness sake that’s been a no no for many years!
    Louise, we are doing what you are thinking of doing and are slowly learning what kicks us out of ketosis, a little extra fruit and carrots seem to be my nemesis! All previously looked on as very good for me!
    Birdie, well done for your research, you only need to be an expert of how your body reacts!
    Although I”m not needing to lose anymore weight, the worry about putting it back on in the difficult phase of maintenance never goes away and if I may, I’d really like to go through this journey with you all. I still weigh myself every day as the fear is so great.

    P.S. please forgive my post if it’s disjointed I’m busy trying to pack as I”m flying to England tomorrow to visit my daughter and I should stay focused on that really! ( I live in France)

  • posted by KazzUK
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    Hello and thanks for starting this, V. I’m another Keto fan. I think after doing BSD, I eventually evolved quite naturally towards Keto as my knowledge increased on this low carb journey. Plus I’ve never counted calories! So keto and IF are perfect for me.
    Good to see you again, Artful Owl! 🙂 Congratulations on having reached maintenance. You have the tools to very quickly reverse any small gain and as time goes on, the fear will diminish I’m sure. Good luck!
    Dr Bosworth’s book is an amazing read! Well done on sourcing your meat, Birdy! Dogs get T2 as well so probably a good idea!
    JGwen – your story reminds me of the film Mommie Dearest – about Joan Crawford! xxx

  • posted by Birdy76
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    Hello and welcome Artful Owl I am sure you were in here when I first started my journey, great to see you back and in maintenance. 35lbs is an amazing discard.

    We welcome you with open arms. I am still in the reading and researching at the moment but I have upped my fat intake. I am already used to OMAD and IF so I know I can do this with a bit of patience and support.

    Wow yes you are right Kazzuk I knew dogs could but that hadn’t even entered into my head when I decided to try it😂😂. Thank you. See you all later as I am in my bath of magnesium chloride and don’t want to drop the phone in it😂😂. Birdy 💞🦜

  • posted by Verano
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    Welcome Artful Owl good to see you here and it looks like you’ve both made great progress. Best of luck with maintenance.
    Kazz I hadn’t realised you were following a keto diet. How long have you being doing it and did you find the transition to high fat difficult?
    JGwen my guess is that you nephew may beat a hasty retreat when he realises that the nearest takeaway is 10miles away!!! But who knows he may just appreciate your ‘healthy’ food. Enjoy …. if you can!
    Well a very fruitful day for me today but only in a figurative way! I’m 25% of the way through Dr Boswell’s book and I’m hooked! I think I may just have to get some pee sticks. Yesterday when my blood sugar dropped I never realised that I could have been in ketosis. Think I need a to monitor a little more carefully for a while at least.
    My version of keto Asian meatballs are in the oven and instead of throwing away the excess oil I fried them in I poured it over the meat before I put it on n the oven. One small step …

  • posted by Verano
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    P.S. JGwen I agree with Kazz …. your story is sad x

  • posted by Birdy76
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    V that is really good about using your fat to roast them. Like you said one small step. The book is great and really is simple to follow. It is a bit sad in places but it gets you routing for Grandma Rose❤️

    I experimented with making my own mayo! I used one egg yolk as didn’t want to waste any if I didn’t like it. I used avocado oil, a little salt, a squeeze of fresh lemon juice and some Dijon mustard. I have avoided carbs altogether today to see how it effects my numbers, so for supper I had fried halloumi, steak and a fried egg! It was nice except for the chilli flakes in the cheese, they were way too tough and dry. I have also eaten a sausage. My aim is to now fast until Friday morning. I have fasted a bit in BSD and found it ok. But it is all still an experiment.

    V I bought the pee sticks when I first started back in April, only tried them twice as it was too soon. After the years of carb and sugar abuse my body wasn’t ready to make ketones. But since reading the book I have used them 3 times a day. As the day progresses they seem to get darker and I think that is because I only have coffee with dbl cream and water throughout the day and then eat my OMAD. I am going to have bullet proof coffee tomorrow morning too. Still scared that I will put on weight because of the amount of extra calories, but Dr B says all her patients have gone through that.

    My numbers today have gone from 0.26 up to 0.46 do according to the chart in Dr B’s book I am in nutritional ketosis.

    Good luck all 💞🦜 Birdy

  • posted by Artful Owl
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    Thank you for your welcomes. It’s lovely to find some fellow ketonians.
    Birdy, my weight discard is nothing compared to yours. I’m sure you’ll embrace the keto way, IF and OMAD will make it so much easier. Just remember to eat until your satiated. Do tell me, I’m fascinated as to what a bath of magnesium chloride is for!
    J Gwen, we live in a VERY quiet area of France , our nearest shops are a 20 minute drive away and takeaways are non existent. We had some friends visit us soon after we moved here and they couldn’t understand why anyone would want to live so far from “civilisation” – takeways, instant shopping and cinemas! It was so obvious they couldn’t wait to leave. I do wonder if your nephew will be the same. The silence can be deafening for some!
    Verano, a word of warning, I’ve read that pee sticks can be a bit unreliable once the packet has been opened and exposed to the air. J Gwen recommended a cheap breathalyzer to check for ketosis. It feels quite rebellious doesn’t it to pour fat back onto your food not off it! I make a salad with goats cheese and fried bacon, I used to pour the bacon fat away, now we enjoy it on the salad leaves!
    Kazz, thank you, I too hope it the stress lessens, this is worse than losing weight!

    I’m packed and now making my hubby supplies to keep him going while I’m away…. Diet doctor bread buns and keto lemon curd with the left over egg yolks. He’s incredibly disciplined and only has one a day……. or when I’m home he does!

    Good luck everyone !!

  • posted by Birdy76
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    Hi artful Owl having a magnesium chloride bath helps you absorb magnesium without overdosing. I am very weary of supplements and have been told that taking too much magnesium can cause heart attack and heart problems. So I thought instead of worrying I would have the two 40 min baths a week. I think we forget that our skin is the biggest absorber😂😂. It took Dr B’s book to make me realise. Magnesium is as tricky as iron!! But thankfully I am learning more each day and I will be making liverwurst at the weekend😂. Also goat products like cheese and milk have more MCT in them than coconut oil! The shorter molecules that help it absorb quicker and make more ketones! Never knew that and I love goats cheese. Have a fab time in the UK AO. Birdy 💞🦜

  • posted by wendleg
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    Hi everyone
    I am following the keto thread too. I can’t do full on keto with all the meat although I am aware it is still possible to stay very low carb without eating steak ! I have mentioned before that I am an avid reader of anything about nutrition and keto has been an important part of that, although I have to pick and choose the recipes. Thomas deLauer talks about a vegan or plant based keto diet which is interesting, but his impressive muscles are a bit distracting !
    I think Kazz mentioned Keto Christina who gives very clear, straightforward advice based on her experience . She has a youtube channel. I also like watching videos by Dr Eric Berg , probably because he draws pictures on a white board 😉
    So it is vey interesting …and like Birdy, I am learning all the time !
    I have been mixing things up as you mention, Artful Owl …OMAD, TMAD, intermittent and extended fasting….keto/not keto 😉
    I still have a stone or so to go before I can begin maintaining and I can’t get complacent.
    Have a good trip to the Uk , Owl and I hope your daughter is ok ?

  • posted by Elky
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    Hi All

    I think I’ll follow along with this thread too. I clearly must have a look at the Dr Bosworth book you’re all reading, it sounds interesting.

    I need to go away and read, but I suspect I am following a keto diet now, except that I find I still need to count calories too. I am not one of those people who can eat what they fancy provided it’s high fat – I can still eat too much, sigh.

    But equally, I have absolutely no trouble eating all the fat, I have taken to it like a duck to water 😊

    Cheers, Elky

  • posted by Kafin13
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    I’m going to follow along too since I think I’m basically doing a keto diet except I do have to limit my calories. I’m like Elky, I can’t just eat all the fat I want and I do have to be careful with protein. My belief is my body operates on a tight rope because of all the crazy yo-yo dieting over the years so I need to work on healing that which I believe (and JGwen, I’m relying on you to correct me if I’m wrong!) means under 20g of carbs and fasting. I need to ease into fasting as my body doesn’t tolerate it well as the moment. Going to try and finish out this week with OMAD and see how that goes.

  • posted by Kafin13
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    JGwen – I understand your textural issue thing, I have a problem with peach fuzz! Not that I eat them anymore 😥🍑

  • posted by MerryMelba
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    Hi all Ketonians
    I too find that being in keto is good for my energy levels and for reducing inflammation in my body. As I am very close to my goal weight I am playing with trying to keep the carbs low while upping the calories. Interesting!
    I really like a book called “What the Fat” https://whatthefatbook.com/ There is now also a new book “What the Fat:Recipes” – but the original book has lots of good recipes in it. I found it really useful! It’s an Australian/NZ book so most libraries there will have a copy, and the What the Fat book is available as ebook.
    Someone was asking for more low carb recipes – and their website has a few from the book, and a How can I Do This? resource for those who are trying to change from BSD to more keto foods.
    Another valuable site is https://www.lowcarbdoctors.com.au/ This has many videos from a Conference held in 2018. It also has good resources. And lastly https://lowcarbdownunder.com.au/resources/lchf-practitioners/ – another good site, and a list of Australian medical doctors who at LCHF Friendly!
    Merry

  • posted by Verano
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    Good morning/afternoon/evening everyone. So good to see Wendy, Elky and Kafin joining in. The more the merrier! Elky and Kafin I’m sure I’m like you in that I can’t just eat fat with gay abandon and need to watch the calories as well. Not sure if this is just psychological but for the moment I’m aware of calorie content. Maybe we have to be 100% into ‘only eating when hungry and only enough to satiate’ before we can relax with calories.
    Birdy do you use sriracha? The one I have does have some sugar in it, 14g per 100ml, but as you literally only use a very small squirt it’s negligible. It may just get over the dry chilli flakes effect.
    Wendy thanks for all the references. Looks like another busy reading day for me then!
    I have copied a link to some low carb/keto events below. For those in the UK, North West there is a free conference on September 19th with Dr David Unwin as the main speaker. It’s meant for educators but I think we all are, after all we are teaching each other!
    https://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb/events
    Artful Owl thanks for the warning about the sticks not sure what I’m going to do yet. This morning my fasting blood sugar was 5.5 which is the lowest it’s ever been and this suggests my ketones are higher. Maybe I’ll just go by that measure for the moment. Although I really do want to lose weight my primary objective is to keep my T2 in remission and keto seems to be doing that!
    Anyway, I’ll be carrying on with Dr Bosworth today but I wish everyone a successful day whatever path you take.

  • posted by LouiseKangooroo
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    Thanks for the book rec @merrymelba I have put a copy of the book on hold at my local library 🙂🙂🙂

  • posted by Verano
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    Welcome MerryM our posts must have crossed in the ether! Thank you so much for the references. I knew I was going to be busy today but now I think I may be ‘working’ way into the night!

  • posted by Maisiebeth
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    Good morning all. I am thinking of giving Keto a try. I have been doing the Fast800 for a couple of months and it is going really well, but I am starting to find my resolve slipping a bit, cravings resurfacing and it starting to be a bit of a challenge. I am thinking that I need to do something to shake things up a bit. I have downloaded Dr Bosworth’s book and it is interesting but there is too much science for me and I am struggling a bit with it. I know Keto works but at this stage I don’t feel the need to know exactly why it works. I get the more fat, less protein and next to no carbs but what would really help is a simple diet plan. How much fat for example. Do I fry my cabbage in olive oil or do I stick a straw in the bottle and drink it!? Can anyone suggest a website that would lay out a suggested weekly meal plan just so that I can get my head around the quantities. Any guidance gratefully received.

  • posted by LouiseKangooroo
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    @maisiebeth check out the diet doctor website meal plans. They have a 2 weeks free meal plan and their recipes are very good too.
    Hopefully that will get you in the groove of things!! ☺️
    Personally I just add fat everywhere and don’t worry about quantities as I eat fat to satiety. But I understand how it can be hard at first and much easier to have some sort of guidelines.
    Good luck, hope this helps

  • posted by Maisiebeth
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    Just signed up for the 2 week trial, thank you. I think this is going to take some time to get my head around. It seems to go against the basis of the Fast 800 that I have been following. For example, the calorie content of one day’s meals is 2228. I know it’s different and that the calories are made up of the right sort of foods, but I am very nervous about trying it. Have any people out there had really good success with it?

  • posted by EC
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    Hi all but in particular JGwen
    when i decided to do a biohack and try keto just so I’d experienced it first hand (as a vegetarian) my partner downloaded a vegetarian plan from KetoDietEbooks.com -like you, JGwen since childhood I struggled with the texture of meat (esp gristle!) and so naturally moved to vegetarianism as a 16 yo…which until my 40s saw me fit, slim and healthy…so it’s mainly menopause (and v likely stress/wine that have become my nemesis)
    I used it as a basis and while I still struggled with all the dairy fat it was otherwise easy and very adaptable as a vegetarian (but seriously, don’t try the Mediterranean fat bombs (keto snacks)….they were the most disgusting thing I’ve tasted in a long while!!

    anyhow while I personally don’t believe there’s any evidence for it for longevity (as there is in spades for the Mediterranean diet)-
    I think it’s a worthwhile intervention strategy

  • posted by LouiseKangooroo
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    Hey @merrymelba my local library also has a book called What The Fast by the same author of What The Fat. Have you read it by any chance? Any good?

  • posted by BeeGirl
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    Afternoon folks

    Thought I’d jump in and join this thread too – I’ve been eating low carb most of the time since I started Fast800 and have now moved towards keto and IF for a change, and I’m always interested to learn more tricks and tips! I don’t count carbs or calories (part of my reason for moving to keto is to try and get away from calorie counting as I’d like to be able to manage my weight ‘normally’ eventually, whatever that means).

    I don’t measure ketones either, but am toying with getting an On-Call Glucose & Ketone meter as I try to dial things in a bit more – I’m conscious that I’m pretty good at getting the fat in, but need to drop the protein (particularly cheese!) a bit and add in a bit more veg, but I’d like to understand how individual foods impact me to see what would suit me individually. Anyone tried one of these at all?

    Today’s lunch was my first attempt at home made saag paneer (I know what I said about dairy and cheese…but….cheese is nice…😁) – turned out more like spinach, butter and cheese soup with flaked almond garnish 😂 But it was tasty at least!

    I use Diet Doctor for a lot of recipes, Butter Chicken is a fav, plus fathead pizza and I make a lot of keto bread / stupid easy bagels etc.

  • posted by MerryMelba
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    Hi Louise
    I read it a while ago. I think it would be worth you having a look at it. You have been working with a few types of fasting so you may already know some of the info in the book, but there is always some new info to pick up. Especially if you can borrow it from the library for free 😀!
    Merry
    Libraries Change Lives
    https://librarieschangelives.org.au/
    I work in libraries, so just giving them a plug!

    PS are you a fan of Gary Taubes? He is speaking in Melbourne in October. https://lowcarbdownunder.com.au/events/low-carb-melbourne-2019/

  • posted by Birdy76
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    Afternoon everyone, lovely to see the thread so busy❤️

    Merry thank you for all the links and book recommendations, love that you are plugging the libraries too. It is so easy to forget we have them. I am going to go to my local one tomorrow and order the books you have said about😃

    Hi V funny you should ask about chilli/hot sauces as I was working that aisle last night and decided to check them all out! There are loads in our branch of Sainsbury’s. So my findings were quite surprising! Tabasco all varieties have carbs/sugars which I was really shocked about and of course the one you mentioned and about 6 more, but I finally found one that has 0carbs/sugar🥳. It is called Cholula chilli garlic hot sauce it only has 69 Cals per 100ml, 0.7 fat, 0 saturated fats, 0 carbs, 0 sugar, 3.7g fibre, 0.7 protein and 5.5g of salt. It is also suitable for vegetarians and vegans 🤣. I am looking forward to trying it when I finish my fast tomorrow. Think I will put it over a chicken breast🤣.

    Also today my new ketone tester arrived I bought it from eBay the Clearsns dual, it was only £18.99 but you only get two free Keto testing sticks with it, so a little disappointed as I had to order them today and now need to wait for them😳. They are as expensive as the machine, but this is all in the name of science and as they say “you need speculate to accumulate”🤣

    . So I did my readings this morning by pee stick, breathalyser and bloods. My ketone reading from blood was the highest I have ever had at 1.7, before the highest I have ever had from the breathalyser is 0.5-0.6. So win there! My pee stick was also very dark pink so that coincides with the bloods. There is the proof that the sticks work and they are a lot cheaper than the blood machine. It really is worth investing in them and the breathalyser ladies so you can see what foods chuck you out or how much of something chucks you out. I am in the last chapter of the book and Dr B can’t stress enough how important it is to test regularly for the first 4 weeks. This is what I am going to do. My bloods were 5.1 the highest they have been since I started my journey. I am not concerned as that is still normal.

    Hope this helps guys birdy💞🦜

  • posted by Verano
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    Welcome EC, Maisiebeth and BeeGirl lovely to see our little band growing.
    Just a couple of quick points but I will post later.
    I just found ‘What the fat’ and ‘What the fast’ on Amazon who are doing a months trial of Prime for 99p and both books can be downloaded free onto a kindle app via Prime. Don’t forget to cancel the Prime subscription, which you’re can do straight away, so as not to get charged the full £7.99 next month.
    Also Future Learn has a course, also free, called ‘Food for thought: the relationship between food, gut and brain’ which may be of interest. That can be accessed from anywhere in the world, except maybe China! Sorry, shouldn’t get political on here!

  • posted by Verano
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    Sorry that was a weeks trial with Amazon for 99p not a month! Sorry.
    Anyway, Maisiebeth I’ve tried a few dietdoctor recipes and they have worked well. I made the fish in Thai sauce which was lovely, the keto Thai meatballs and tonight the chicken korma. The chicken was a bit tough but I will make it again but with cod next time. There are so many recipes to choose from you should be spoilt for choice. Hope you get your head around it …. most of us new ketoners are struggling a little!
    BeeGirl the butter chicken is definitely on my list.
    Birdy I figure that with 57ml in a bottle of Tabasco the few drops I use have negligible carbs! Always need to be vigilant though but I guess I’m a bit come day go day! I did order some keto strips today so maybe my laid back attitude is about to be shaken up!
    EC I think that you could be right about using keto as an ‘intervention strategy’, time will tell but I’m very open minded at the moment.
    So coming towards the end of day 3 for me and I’m definitely not hungry. I’m eating two meals a day and staying away from snacks. I’m thinking that even if I don’t get into ketosis at least I’ve been restricting my food intake and if I end up going back to fast 800 I will have learnt a lot from this experience. In saying that, I’m not on the verge of giving up keto yet. Will have to give the pee sticks a go first!

  • posted by Birdy76
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    Sorry I should have said welcome to you guys to. I got all over excited about results! I was also in the middle of typing and my friend was trying to Skype me from the US🤣

    This is what I love this forum, everybody is always ready to help and we have always got something to share.❤️ Thank you guys. I am back of to my final nightshift for this week in a bit and I want to finish my book and cook dinner for my family. Well I don’t really want to cook as I am fasting but 24hrs in now,

    I hope you all have a great evening and I will see you tomorrow. Getting excited to see what my readings are tomorrow.

    Koko guys 💞🦜 Birdy

  • posted by Verano
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    Maisiebeth I’ve just skimmed through ‘What the fat’ , suggested by MerryMelba, and I think it’s a really clear explanation of keto. It might just be worth a look if you’re struggling.

  • posted by Elky
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    Maisiebeth, I think everyone here has given great guidance on how to add fat to your meals.

    But, you flagged that you were nervous about a meal plan where the calorie count for one day alone is 2228 and I wanted to add one note of warning before you launch in.

    The idea of eating until you’re full, and fat being necessary to trigger that feeling, is great if you have a normal relationship with food. But not everyone here does—and I’m one of those “disordered eaters”. That means that I have to be terribly careful about the idea of eating until I’m full because, frankly, I won’t always stop.

    I’m an emotional eater. I eat when I’m happy, sad, tired, stressed, bored. I can have finished a perfectly delicious dinner an hour ago, but that won’t stop me standing in front of the fridge, scrounging for something else to eat. I’m most unlikely to stop eating before I’ve cleaned by plate, even if my plate has so much on it that food is almost spilling over the edges. I am most unlikely to put a small amount of leftovers away for another day, I’m much likely to eat it while I clean up the kitchen after cooking.

    I have no good reason for this relationship with food, I’m not one of those people who was forced to eat everything on their plate as a child. I came to this unhealthy approach all on my own.

    I have learned the hard way that “eat until satiety” is dangerous advice for me. I cannot follow the DietDoctor advice of not counting calories, etc etc. Instead, I have to faithfully track every gram and calorie that goes into my mouth. And I have to keep those calories low, even if they are made up almost entirely of protein and good fats.

    I freely admit that this is tedious and boring and I wish I wasn’t like this. But I am. I suspect that even when I’m in maintenance I am probably still going to have to count. I think there are others here who have been in maintenance for more than a year and still count pretty carefully.

    The point of this long and involved story about me is that, when it comes to the “just eat until you’re full” advice with Keto, your mileage may vary. You will know your own relationship with food. If it’s healthy then the advice will no doubt be really solid for you, and you can just leap into DietDoctor’s “don’t count calories” mantra. But if you’re one of my mob, and your relationship with food is less than ideal, I do counsel a bit of caution.

    I don’t want to offend anyone in saying this, I know that “eat until you’re full” works for a lot of people. But for some of us, for whatever reason, it just doesn’t. Please don’t think I’m dismissing Keto in saying that, I am definitely not, I am just counselling that for me at least—and I think some others here—it needs to be “calorie counting Keto”.

    JGwen, I saw your note on the Egg Fast thread about your thinking on getting more adapted to fat burning. I’m very happy to wait for you to get a spare moment and then post your thoughts on this thread, there’s no burning rush on this!

    Cheers, Elky

  • posted by Kafin13
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    I absolutely love and identify with this post so much, Elky! You are describing me in many ways, although I have some food relationship issues that I’ve described in the past that were as a result of my mother’s own issues. But, I’m an adult now so up to me to deal with them.
    I absolutely need to monitor my calorie intake too and that doesn’t mean I agree with the calories in/out theory as I do not but my own experience is that (a) I cannot be trusted to eat until satiated. I can be trusted to eat until ill. I am working on this but it’s not really a question of science, it’s about dealing with my own thoughts and feelings. And (b) my body, probably through years of damaging yo-yo dieting, has a metabolism where if I overeat (even good fats), I gain. For right now, 800 calories needs to be my norm.
    What I am interested in is how one fixes metabolism/insulin resistance after years of damage so that I can get to a point in the future where I don’t have to meticulously record everything and can eat more organically and by that I mean, have a meal without wanting to stuff myself and just be satisfied at the end of it. I think for me, that happens with incorporating fasting, continuing to have 20g or less carbs and avoiding sugar. I think it’s been mentioned before that we didn’t get to our weights and unhealthy eating habits overnight so it won’t reverse overnight either. I don’t know how long it takes or how you accurately measure it but my plan is to continue with 800 calories (which given what I eat, still has a basis in keto) until I hit my goal and then I’ll utilize Allie’s valuable input to slowly “up: my calories and monitor where the lose/gain point is.
    So, I’m not criticizing or dismissing anyone else’s experience as I believe in the keto way, to me, it’s yet another example of how differently our bodies all react and we have to find what works for us 😊

  • posted by LouiseKangooroo
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    @elky thanks for your post, it is such an important distinction and I think that most people on this forum have struggled with eating to satiety at some point in their lives.
    I can totally relate with what you describe, I was (time will tell if I still am) an emotional eater, especially for dealing with negative feelings. I would seek the instant gratifications of carbs. Which will make me feel bloated and worse, so would have some more. Vicious cycle… 🙁
    I feel like I have made some progress on curbing down that emotional eating response. Here’s how :
    1. Going low carbs. It helped me by changing my microbiome and making carbs a lot less attractive to me. They just don’t call out my name anymore.
    2. Fasting 24 hours and more. This has a very strong side effect on my appetite. After a fast, I actually have a lack of appetite and while I’m definitely happy to eat, a small amount will satisfy me and if I overdo it, I’m in a world of pain. So it taught me to eat just enough to feel satiated as the repercussion of eating too much were very painful.
    3. Hypnotherapy. This one is a little bit left field but I had 3 sessions with a hypnotherapist were I worked on changing my internal messaging. And it was so so so good. I can still hear that little voice distilling positive messages about my body, my shape, my worth, my food choices and somehow I am much more at peace with food than I have ever been. I can listen to those recordings whenever I feel the need for a little reminder and it works.
    4. Eating high fat. I could eat a lot of food before going low carbs/high fat – I mean I could down a whole pint of ice cream, and having more chocolate after that, and that was just dessert after a whole 300g worth of dry pasta meal. But somehow eating very high fat kinda make that impossible. I’m not sure how nor why but I just can’t “destroy” as much food as I used to. It’s physically impossible. Is it that my stomach has shrunk? Probably. But I have a feeling that I could still eat today the same amount of ice cream/chocolate/pasta as I used to eat, but if you make this high fat then I can’t. I experienced this feeling during my egg and fat fast. It was just so much fat that at some point I couldn’t eat more.

    Also regarding IR and how to reverse it, according to the podcast from Dr Jason Fung, fasting & keto would do but it’s a long process and no one really know how long it could take. Of course Dr Fung would say that fasting is the way to go as that is his speciality but I’m sure there are other ways to reverse IR.

  • posted by Verano
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    Very interesting posts. Thank you. I guess it just shows again that there isn’t a ‘one size fits all’ approach with any eating plan. I think I need to keep an eye on calories as well. Not necessarily counting every scrap that enters my mouth but certainly being aware of what I’m eating, especially fat.
    Last night I made the chicken korma recipe, which was lovely except the yogurt sauce split, but I’ll remedy that next time. I also fried some shredded cabbage for the curry to sit on. I really didn’t like the ‘fatty’ cabbage I much prefer my cabbage steamed with maybe a small knob of butter. In fact I think I prefer all my vegetables ‘au naturel’ apart from mashed cauliflower which does improve with the addition of butter.
    I am learning a lot from this experiment and the most interesting thing is that, even with the addition of small amounts of fat, I am not hungry. I suppose we each have to find our own level of fat to stay satiated.
    So day 5 for me today, I’ve been a bit confused by the days this week, but still enjoying and learning lots about my body.
    Have a good day everyone.

  • posted by Busybee
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    This is very complicated!
    I too am trying to absorb all this Keto information whilst lowering my carbs and upping the fat.
    I’m definitely in the ‘can’t eat to full’ society and still can be easily tempted by carbs and booze when upset or stressed.
    I’ll muddle along over the next three weeks before our holiday and experiment more with pee sticks and the breathalyser.
    X Confused B

  • posted by Artful Owl
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    Good morning everyone!
    I am certain one of the “can’t be trusted to just eat until satiated” club too.The messages from my brain telling me I’m full take the scenic route sometimes and don’t arrive until it’s too late, by which time I’ve eaten much more than I really needed. Emotional eating is also a big factor with me, either sad or happy times…. the happy ones usually include alcohol and that kills off my one sensible brain cell that tells me not to eat any more!
    Sadly, for what ever reason, a lot of us are in the position we are now because of our bad relationship with food and eating. Knowing what our trigger points are and trying to resolve them is half the battle, we’re a long way down that road as we’re here trying to do something about it. If that includes adapting and combining different ways of eating, perhaps to include some keto, as long as it suits our own body, does that really matter? We’re sticking to the lchf principles that we know have been proved to work and will keep us healthier? The maxim one size doesn’t fit all is so true.

    I have started my journey through the early days of maintenance by very slowly increasing calories, then I upped my carbs a little as I’m not insulin resistant. I also try to stay in ketosis as much as possible. It’s still very early days, I don’t feel relaxed with it, I’m still hoping on the scales each morning and blowing in my breathalyser, but I’m trying not to count my calories now and just trying to trust my body to feel full. The extra healthy fat is definitely helping, as is carrying on with IF. I don’t feel hungry, but then it was never that simple! I can’t face some of the true keto meals that seem to be awash in cheese, butter and cream … once again those years of conditioning still make the inner me scream “unhealthy too much fat”! But I am enjoying the freedom of eating full fat Greek yogurt , chicken skin and … oh God, BELLY PORK!! So I’m still even now not being consistent and rational
    I’m definitely still …… work in progress!

    I found this link on the Diet Doctor FB page about ketosis , being fat adapted and pee sticks , it’s quite a good , easier to understand read
    http://www.tuitnutrition.com/2016/01/dont-be-a-ketard1.html?fbclid=IwAR0KWMpC4z-U9yPWUTbcit8qRbmz6-Pw67uQgsN-0ww6eT1RjIqtlOOLFrM

    Have a good day everyone and good luck with your WOE, whatever it may be.

  • posted by Verano
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    Artful Owl thank you so much for the link it has made this whole keto business so much clearer. Of course after reading the three articles I went on to look at some videos on YouTube by KenDBerry MD. Well what a revelation, I can eat vegetables! Asparagus, cabbage, broccoli, kale (not sure about that one!), celery, cucumber, sprouts and olives. WOW life us looking so much sunnier,
    I actually think I am fat-adapted from the ‘signs’ Berry cites. More importantly my blood glucose has dropped significantly in the four days I’ve been very low carb, which suggests my insulin levels have dropped as well.
    The most interesting point that came across to me is that you don’t have to be in ketosis to burn fat, you just have to be fat adapted, and that even you are in ketosis it doesn’t automatically mean you are burning fat!
    We just keep on learning ……..

  • posted by LouiseKangooroo
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    @verano I’d love to watch that video about Dr Berry regarding being in ketosis and not burning fat. It goes against everything I have read so far so I’m really keen to learn more! Thanks 🙂

  • posted by Maisiebeth
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    Thank you every one for your guidance. It’s so good to know I am not alone. I also struggle with the eat till you are full strategy. Especially if I am really enjoying what is on my plate and if there is a possibility of seconds! Also, isn’t there the whole thing about taking 20 minutes for your stomach to tell your brain that you are full. I could eat my dinner and my husband’s in that time! Or is that just another myth too?
    I think a life time of “fat bad, lettuce good” conditioning is hard to break especially following on from the Slimming World theory of as much rice, pasta and potatoes as you want. Whenever I start a new plan I devour the science and while not actually understanding 95% of it, it all sounds so believable. But such opposing views can’t all be right, or wrong, so who is a slightly chubby middle aged lady to believe!
    However, recent experience has shown me that the Fast 800 works for me. I am trying to incorporate the keto diet in as much as I try to keep the carbs below 20g, although a lot of the recipes in the BSD book are above that per serving. But I am too scared to go up to the calorie values they suggest, at least right now. I am on a deadline, Florida in 7 weeks, but maybe after that I will give the 2 week challenge a go and see if it proves me wrong.

  • posted by Verano
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    Louise sorry I think my post may have been a bit confusing Berry’s video talks about the signs that make you know you are fat adapted. I can’t find the link just at this moment but I will!
    The articles posted by Artful Owl (link above) are the ones that talk about being in ketosis and not burning fat or visa versa.
    Let me know what you think about the articles.

  • posted by Verano
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    Got it!

  • posted by Verano
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    Maisiebeth I think we all have to find our own pathway. We are all different but we all share the same ultimate goal of better health. It can all become so confusing and contradictory so when you find your path forward just run with it and ignore the rest!

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