Hello All,

It’s good to be posting in the maintenance page after hitting some targets in terms of dropping weight (kg), bodyfat (%) and waist circumference (cm)!

My question to those who are already in maintenance mode is what guidelines you are following in terms of carb / protein / fat levels. When I was doing the Fast800 it was all quite straightforward:

•  < 30g carbs
• >80g protein
• with the balance of the above being good fats and usually in the appx.40g range

This worked out to 15% carbs, 40% protein and 45% good fats. Now that I am going back up to my TDEE of 2000 but still wanting to stay relativelt low carb I am confused as to how to make it work. But if I replicate the % split above it would mean 75g carb, 200g protein and 100g fat. All of these seem too high, especially the carb and protein levels. But if I reduce the carbs to 50g then then I need to increase the protein and/or fat which already seem on the high side. And I can’t reduce the protein or fat levels without further increasing the carbs which are already high.

How is everyone else dealing with this?

Thanks in advance.

Hi,
I have spent the last 3 months in a maintenance trial run while being a guinea pig on a weight training research project. – I thought it was only fair to the guy running the PHD to ease off proactively focusing on weight loss and wanted to see what impact maintaining and weight training had.

First of all forget trying to work out the macros in percentages. Far better to stick to absolutes.
The best formula I have seen for working out protein levels is linked to target weight. Its 0.6 to 0.8g of protein per kg of target weight for a woman, and for a man it can range up to 1g.
With carbs you need to experiment to see what impact different levels of carbs have for maintaining weight. Just raise it a little, say from 30 to 35g and see what the change is.
All your extra calories come from healthy fats, you now get to melt butter over your veg. Have cream in your coffee or cream based sauces.

I saw a post from someone else a while ago on the forum who said that her method of maintaining was to set an upper limit on weight / size. When she started to get close to that she went back on the BSD to get back down. That seems like a sensible long term plan to me.

Thank you, Very useful information JGwen. I have read before of this .6 -.8grams per target kg before, and for my situation is seems very low. I am almost 63yo and am only about 4ft 11in (shorter than 150cm) and light frame. My weight is 45 kg (aiming for 44 as I still carry quite a bit of extra tyre). This would give me a very low protein intake if I used the .8g guideline – only around 36g protein per day.
In doing some further searching I found this research https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1525861013003265
This study talks about 1.2 g per target kg for older people in order to maintain lean body mass. This would give me about 54g a day protein which is much more in the range that I am currently eating. It will be interesting to see future research into protein guidelines for older women in particular.
Cheers
Merry

Hi Merry Melba and JGwen,
Dr. Bikman, whose work resonates with me and my own personal physical experience, strongly recommends we eat the higher amount of protein to protect our muscle.
His reasoning is that as we age (I’m 63) we naturally lose muscle and keeping up our protein intake protects it.
In addition, GAINING muscle is MUCH harder as we age, so we need to be mindful that is we lose it, we may not be able to get it back!
Research also shows that muscle keeps us youthful into old age and loss of muscle is implicated in old-age issues like falling, loss of mobility and broken bones.
So eat adequate protein (for muscles) and make sure you have enough Vitamin D and calcium (for bones) and lift weights!
Strong = healthy

Thank you for your input CaliforniaGirl,
I agree with you on the value of Dr Bikman’s work. – However, the key to ensuring that muscles are not consumed by our bodies when we are counting calories is to keep insulin levels low enough so that our bodies can access our fat stores. An excess of either carbs or protein would prevent insulin being low enough.
You are correct that there is research which shows that a loss of muscle = a decline in health. However, the question is which is the chicken and which the egg. – Apparently the consensus is that its lack of use of muscles which causes their loss. It would make sense that a decline in health results in less activity, which results in a loss of muscle.
I am one of a group of guinea pigs of women in their 50’s who have had a full MOT, and then have been working out once a week for 30 minutes using weight machines for 12 weeks followed by another full MOT to monitor the changes in our strength, power, body composition, and health markers. The formal results have yet to be published, but I was one of the last of the group to go through our second MOT so I know that all of the group have seen an increase in muscles and muscle strength. I would be happy to share details of the program with you if you are interested.

Hi JGwen,
Your experience supports the research then — you gained strength from working with weights. And as I recall, you were not limiting calories during that period, so you would have been eating enough protein to support muscle development.
I would argue that it doesn’t really matter which is the chicken and which is the egg — we lose muscle mostly because of hormonal changes as we get older (less human growth hormone) and if you then add in lack of exercise, obesity and low protein intake, you have a trifecta of real trouble.
I am concerned that research is saying “eat MORE protein” but we keep repeating a lower number here on the forum.
If you are going to work out with weights (and it seems to be essential to do that) it makes sense to be sure you get sufficient protein to BUILD muscle. No amount of fat can do that as it is the amino acids that are critical, not the calories.
Bikman’s recommendation is more like 1 gram protein or even as much as 1.5 grams — and remember, most people here have trouble maintaining a perfect low carb state anyway — so it stands to reason that a small amount more of protein would be beneficial.
I understand that we are splitting hairs here and most people probably don’t really care, but I worry that we should at least MENTION the research so people can make their own informed decision.

You have arguably been on a ‘very low carbohydrate diet’ not a ‘low carbohydrate diet’.

“The American Academy of Family Physicians defines low-carbohydrate diets as diets that restrict carbohydrate intake to 20 to 60 grams per day, typically less than 20% of caloric intake.[2] A 2016 review of low-carbohydrate diets classified diets with 50g of carbohydrate per day (less than 10% of total calories) as “very low” and diets with 40% of calories from carbohydrates as “mild” low-carbohydrate diets.[18] In a 2015 review Richard D. Feinman and colleagues proposed that a very low carbohydrate diet had less that 10% caloric intake from carbohydrate, a low carbohydrate diet less than 26%, a medium carbohydrate diet less than 45%, and a high carbohydrate diet more than 45%.[16]

Both high- and low-carbohydrate (less than 40% of calories from carbohydrate) diets are associated with increased mortality.[3] The optimal proportion of carbohydrate in a diet for health is thought to be 50-55%.[3]”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-carbohydrate_diet#Definition_and_classification

I would suggest focussing more on increasing the variety of wholefoods in your diet, and balancing out individual meals. Micronutrients (minerals/ vitamins/ essential fatty acids/ antioxidants) rather than macronutrients. In the ‘Clever Guts Diet’ Dr Mosley advocates eating twenty to thirty different varieties of fruit and vegetables each week.

The recipes in ‘The Fast 800’ and the accompanying recipe book have suggested additions to make them ‘MORE SUBSTANTIAL’ and for ‘NON-FAST DAYS’. These include adding very modest servings of certain wholegrains or pulses, particularly those which affect blood glucose levels the least.

If you choose not to add in wholegrains and pulses you would need to massively increase your intake of seeds and nuts for minerals and bulking fibre. This then makes it difficult to control overall fat intake and overall calorie intake, and extremely difficult to balance omega-6 fats with omega-3 fats..

HTH!

Hello, Romano-Gat. YES! Maintenance is a completely different journey altogether from weight loss. There are many
experienced people here that have been at this for years. JGwen and Californiagirl are 2 of the most accomplished. I
started the BSD 3 years ago, and have been maintaining a 140lb. loss for 26 months. I could be described as an “old
timer” also:) The best way to protect your metabolic rate is by a process known as “reverse dieting”. It involves upping
your calories very slowly. I have concerns about your macros too, so if you would share your gender, age, and body
type, I’d be happy to look at your figures more carefully. Also your activity levels, and if you enjoy working out? I’d be
extremely careful about eating fruit, until you establish your new carb levels, too. Tropical fruits are off the charts
carb bombs, and most of us only eat fruit very occasionally still. Don’t worry, Romano, help is on the way! We know
what works 🙂

Allie

Sorry, but you guys are confusing me on protein. More or less as a 63 year old? It matters.

Of course, Cat! Too much protein is an impediment to weight loss, as well as maintenance. JGwen, Californiagirl and
I have been discussing other theories that go beyond what is between the covers of MMosley’s books, those espoused
by others that have added to our knowledge but still are based upon low carb principles, and are recognized as leaders
in their fields, like Jason Fung, Bikman, and Gary Taubes. I didn’t mean to confuse you 🙂 Are you confused by what
a moderate protein diet would optimally look like for you following the Fast800, or maintenance levels? Getting the
macros right consists of a lot of variables, based on age, height, target weight, and activity levels. Its definitely not a case
of one size fits all. I’m always ready to help, so please let me know what your concerns are. You know that I’m always
around, and where to find me! See you a 3:30am 🙂

So Allie, do these numbers look correct
age 63 and 5’4”
macros 60 fat/10 carbs/30 protein on an 800 calorie intake
swim 30 minutes, walk 30 minutes, elliptical occasionally 30, occasional bike
currently no weight training
target weight 140
medium frame
And ya, couldn’t sleep, it is 12:30 am

I did read Taubes book and I am on the diet doc website into all the videos, etc as a member. Bikman I have heard on youtube.

Good morning, Cat! You know exactly what time it is 🙂 It’s just great that you’re keeping yourself immersed in learning
more each day. I think it really does help to keep us on the straight and narrow, and your commitment to daily
exercise is impressive, particularly in the heat!! I should do more than I do…These elements will all figure in to
establishing your TDEE when you approach maintenance. But right now though, on 800cal/day, my calculator reads
at a goal weight of 140lbs, your protein requirement should be 50g. (That’s .8g x63kg) One of my earlier failed diet
attempts 20 yrs ago had me on 35g/per day, and after 5 months, I started losing a lot of hair. I didn’t want to repeat
that experience again, so I did research on protein requirements for women, and kept to @ 50g a day for 10 months.
I’ve had none of these problems this time around, and I’m approaching 3 years very soon. After an 18 day plateau
2 months into the diet, I adjusted my carbs to <20/day, and the rest was healthy fat. I did record protein and carb
gr each day, but I didn’t keep track of the fat g. I don’t think it’s necessary to do so, as it can vary day by day. I hope
this helps. I do think your protein is a bit too low. Is there a particular reason why you have set your carbs at 10g?
If you are under 20g, it seems to be accepted wisdom that you will be in optimal fat burning mode. I don’t use
a breathylizer, but those that do seem to confirm this. Just curious 🙂 Give some thought to a few tweaks, but you
are on the right track. I hope the cocktail hr. is becoming more manageable, too! Every glass of wine has 3.8-4g of
carbs in it, and we have to count that also. unfortunately! Keep up the good fight 🙂

Morning Allie, let me read this and respond

Thanks for the detail. Yes, I am knowledgeable about the TDEE also.
I have my macros set at 50/15/35. I gave you what my actual next week menus are coming out to.

Looks like my actual protein for next week average daily is 70, carbs 19 and fiber 9

I was counting my alcohol and unfortunately I had 10 carbs on a daily basis

Fat average is 59. I use my fitness pal.
Yes, I do need advice to tweak my menus. Less Protein and a few more carbs?

Actually, my average macros next week are 60fat/8carbs/32 protein with average 838 calories
protein 71
carb 19
fiber 9
fat 59

FYI, cocktail hour alone used to run me 800 average calories! Yikes!!

How about
56/15/29 macro
Protein 50 g
Carb 30
Fiber at least 10 so that net carb is 20
Fat 53 g

Cat, THAT’s a PLAN!!! Please let me know how you get on with it! Many here find macros so confusing, and I’m sure others
will be interested, too. Have a great weekend! 140lbs, here you come! 🙂

Ok, Allie!

Great to read all the thoughts and comments.

If I focus on g instead of % and go with up to 1.2g protein per kg this gets me 87g protein – call it 90g. If then limit my carbs to 50g I would – according to the Goals section of MyFitnessTracker – need a whopping 150g of fat to get up to my TDEE of 2000 per day. This just seems huge. And even if I up the carbs to 75g per day and kept the protein at 90g I would still need 145g of fat to reach my TDEE.

Given that I am working out 3 x per week including weights I think I am going to up my protein to 100g, experiment with carbs (non-starchy from veg and legumes) in the 50-75g range with the balance as good fats (avocado, peanuts, olive oils etc).

In addition carbs, protein, fat I see that some people are tracking fibre… is this something that has come out of your reading of the Clever Gut Diet (which i haven’t read)?

AllieCat – my details are: male, 45 years old, 5’8″, medium build. Activity levels ebb and flow! Sometimes 3 x per week, sometimes none for a bit until I remember i always feel better after moving around more…

Allie!!!! Romano and I still have questions!

Mine is this- this weeks menus ends up with macros at 60fat/15carbs/25protein
average calories is 782
protein 51 grams
carbs 30 grams
fiber 14 grams

I am guessing this is okay.

More than okay, CAT! What you’ve worked out is THE very definition of “high healthy fat, moderate protein, and low carb”,
which IS the BSD 🙂

Thanks Allie!