I have been following the 800 diet for 3 weeks today, but so far not with much success. Over the three weeks my averages ‘numbers’ are:-
Calories 764
Carbohydrates 64 grammes
of which added sugar 11 grammes (and all sugar, including natural 19 grammes)
Fibre 10 grammes
Protein 55 grammes
Over the three weeks I have gone from 13 stone 8 to 13 stone 5 but my blood sugar shows no overall reduction, I use an AccoChek Mobile monito twice a week and the readings , whilst fluctuating slightly, show no signs of coming down – it measures in m/mol and today’s reading was 7.1, actually a bit higher than for the last fortnight
As I say in the heading – what am I doing wrong?
\mike

Oh, should have said – I am 79 years old and 6′ 1″ whihc accordong to BMI numbers is JUST not overweight
Mike

Hi Mike

My first suggestion would be to reduce your carbs. Many diabetics on here have dropped to around 25g. That’s how I got my blood sugars down to the lower end of normal.

Also, are you drinking enough water? Are you eating enough protein and good fats?

It’s common for blood sugars to rise in the early days as our bodies react to what’s happening. But they do come down.

Oh, I’m 66 and 5′ 1″.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for that – I’ll have a look at carb intake – one of the problems that I seem to experience is trying to find items of food that, whilst ‘good’ in one respect are bad in others.
I have upped my water intake a bit – can always do more.
One intriguing thing – I read on another thread the idea that measuring blood sugar in the early morning – I have been doing it around 05:30 – 06:00 (I’m an early riser) is measuring the fact that the liver is releasing sugar to combat perceived hunger. I read that after I had measured my sugar this morning – 7.1 – so have just checked again – about 11:30 and it is 5.9. For the time being (I measure my sugar twice a week) I think that I will take two readings each time, one at my existing early hour, the other a couple of hours after breakfast so that I can build up a comparison
As for fats – not having any obviously fatty foods
Thanks again
Mike

What are you adding sugar to? Eleven grams of sugar is a lot, and the premise of the diet is that the refined carbs — flour, rice, potatoes, cereals, sugar — should be eliminated. It seems to be you’d be better served to cut out all the sugar, even reducing the natural sugars as much as you can, reduce the overall daily carb count to 50 g or less (a goal you could almost attain just by cutting those 11 g of added sugar) and replace those calories with some lovely filling healthy fats, like olive oil, avocado, nuts, seeds and cheeses.

Michael Rolls, I am probably to blame for you getting up at 5am. You don’t measure your BG at 5 am – I repeat, your liver pumps out glycogen at AROUND 5am, but it could be 3.30 or 4.00 or 6.00, it depends on lots of things, like your weight, when you last ate, what you ate. Just do your BG at your normal time but make sure you have had a very small snack before you go to bed to help PREVENT the liver pumping out glycogen.

Enjoy a good nights sleep tonight.

I don’t add sugar to anything – the ‘added sugar’ is the description used for items whihc aren’t just natural sugar (like an apple or a parsnip or whatever) as opposed to sugar which is part of the manufacturing or production process. It’s not something that I can control other than not eating the products concerned – for example a 100g of Greek Yoghurt has 5.3g of sugar in it. A single Rich Tea biscuit has nearly 2 g , and and so on.
Mike

>>Michael Rolls, I am probably to blame for you getting up at 5am. You don’t measure your BG at 5 am – I repeat, your liver pumps out glycogen at AROUND 5am, but it could be 3.30 or 4.00 or 6.00, it depends on lots of things, like your weight, when you last ate, what you ate. Just do your BG at your normal time but make sure you have had a very small snack before you go to bed to help PREVENT the liver pumping out glycogen.
Enjoy a good nights sleep tonight.<<
I’m pleased to say that it’s not your fault – I’ve been up and about around 5 a.m. for 40 years or more!
It’s just the way that I am – dates back to the days when I had to be up at 5, on the road by 6 to get to the office for 7. Never shaken off the habit even though I have now been retired for over 20 years.
I read your comments on another thread about the early morning rush. Had always assumed that it would be logical to take the BS reading early before eating, as I presumed that it would be affected by what I ate, which could differ from day to day. Interestingly, having taken the DS reading at about 6 this morning – it was 7.1, after reading you post, I took it again at about 11:30 and it was only 5.9 – now I’m really puzzled. Obviously both readings are ‘correct’ for when they were taken – but which one reflects where I really am in relation to being over/ not over the D2 limit?
Mike

Oh – and I hadn’t heard of the pre-bed snack – I’ll try it tonight
Mike

Yes Michael, you should do the test before eating, even if you do eat at 5am. I used to have to get up early when I worked not you cant drag me out of bed before 8am. The snack should be something small like a piece of cheese or slice of cold meat and of course allowed on the BSD, no bowls of cereals like my nutritionist recommended.

I agree with sunshine-girl.

I was always told to test first thing after waking. My experience has been that this particular reading, which never dropped prior to the BSD has now been in the normal range for several months.

And my HbA1c has also dropped into the normal range.

I think that I am beginning to suffer from information overload. Mosley’s book says porage – plain – is OK and that, together with some fruit – blueberries, raspberries, blackberries, about 40g – is what I have for breakfast, which is why I find it difficult to see how one can can achieve 25-30 g of carbs daily – that breakfast gives some 20 g of carbs before the rest of the day kicks in. Are you all saying take the reading before eating – whihc is what I used to do before learning of the ‘dawn rush’? Given the considerable difference in the two readings I had today, 7.1 at 6 a.m before eating, 5.9 around 11-11:30 after eating – which is the true reflection of my BS state?
I do exercise – I have an unpowered treadmill which I use for 20 minutes 6 times a week – it’s the equivalent of walking fast up a 1 in 10 hill, quite hard work for a 79 year old!
I really only have myself to blame for the current situation, after years of being borderline – 18 months ago my disabled wife nearly died and somehow I just slipped into an ‘Ah, sod it!’ mode and just stopped worrying about what I was eating and drinking – a big mistake which I am now trying to rectify
Thanks for all the help and advice – it is much appreciated.
Mike

The book doesn’t actually mention a specific carb target. If you want to go for a carb level in the 25-30g range then it’s going to be difficult, nigh on impossible, to have porridge for breakfast, I’m afraid.

I have porridge as an occasional breakfast but also go for egg breakfasts, yogurt with berries, mushrooms etc

I have porridge as an occasional breakfast too, but only use 20g oats or buckwheat and 10g of milled nuts and seeds to bulk it and provide fibre. Chia or linseed give a very good bulking/thickening effect. Makes a huge bowl full that kept me full for ages, and lower carbs. I was never keeping to the super low carbs though, usually around 35-55g as a non-diabetic was good enough to keep the ketosis going.

One idea could be to try the smaller portion sizes than you are used to, and see if they are sufficient to keep you full. Another is just to allow yourself a little more time to see the effects of the whole 8 weeks.

I don’t really understand all the blood sugar values, but they are obviously both true reflections of what is happening in your body. The dawn effect means that the fasting test can be less reliable and some diabetics, including a long term poster now at maintenance called Bill, if I remember correctly, stopped using fasting blood tests at all until he lost the 15% or so and dropped below his personal visceral fat threshold to the point where the fasting bloods were normal again.

Some diabetics, including me, found that porridge spiked my blood sugars, so it’s something for me to avoid. But my diabetic son can eat it without adverse effects. Might be worth you checking 1 and 2 hours after eating it to see if it affects you.

Calm down a bit Michael Rolls, it is not the end of the world if you make a few mistakes, we all have along the way. Dr M says on page 87 that potatoes and rice are not evil just not to pile your plate with them and think of them more as a side. I think some of us have forgotten that bit of advice and completely got rid of what we think of as devil carbs. We just know that it really affects our BG readings so have decided to do without completely which helps get rid of the craving to want to eat them. Also, if we want to keep to 50g or below they just cannot figure in our plan or within the 800 calories. He also says of porridge (cant find the page number) that it is okay but to think in much smaller portions than we have been used to, I think 20g or 25g is what he recommends.

The book is talking about 3 separate diet plans which allow different amount of carbs Fast 800 (which is a must to start with for diabetics – IMO), the 5:2 which only restricts calorie intake on 2 days but says to keep to 1000 cals on the 5 days and the Med diet which does not prescribe how many calorie but encourages good carbs. It is easy to get confused with this as some of the information overlaps between the diets. I for one have been flicking through the book again to look for answers for you and found things I didn’t know or have chosen to believe. I think I will read the whole book again just to make sure I am doing the best for me but also to watch myself from being too prescriptive when giving advice. For example, I tell people diet shakes are evil yet they are the first thing Dr M recommends in Chapter 7 page 129 he talks about using meal replacement methods, i.e. shakes.

Sorry if this has dragged into your questions but it just shows that things are not always black and white and we take what we want from what we read and ignore some. Whatever you are doing is better than doing nothing and you will learn as you see changes in your weight, your body, your blood glucose, and work out what works for you.

Rant over, goodnight and bless.

Porage – my helping is 27g which gives 100 calories and 16 of carbs – to that I now add 40g of berries, 25ml of milk and 10g of seeds, so the whole breakfast is 170 cals, and 23g of carbs. Alternatives to that (leaving aside things like toast – haven’t touched so much as a breadcrumb since the beginning of the year, even before starting the 800 diet 3 weeks ago, ditto with potatoes), well an egg although also 100 cals is very low in carbs, so I think I will switch to an egg for breakfast and see how I get on (but no toast soldiers!)
Can I quiz you all on fibre, please? The American Medical Association says a reasonable level is 14g per 1,000 cals, and I am near enough on that as a target, but Dr. Mosley and the NHS say 30g a day – how do you get 30g of fibre into 800 cals? Just about all the high fibre foods are also high in cals or carbs or both – porage, bread, etc. Folk talk of vegetables being high in fibre, but broccoli, for example, only has 2.6g per 100g. To get to 30g of fibre you would need to eat 1100g a day (obviously not all broccoli, just using it as an example) which is 374 cals and 77g of carbs, which doesn’t seem practical within an 800 cal diet.
Once again, many thanks for all the help and advice – I really do appreciate it.
Mike

Oh, and I have tried yogurt with berries instead of porage but was concerned at the level of sugar in the result (this is plain Greek yogurt, not one of the sugary fruit ones) – and of course it has no fibre at all
Mike

Hi Mike
I think 30g of fibre on 800 calories is actually impossible. I see you do add seeds which are a good fibre source but have to be restricted on the 800 because they are so high in calories. I don’t think that Michael Moseley expects anyone to eat 30g of of fibre on the 800 and you are actually doing really well with your fibre on that level of calories.

I can do the 30g of fibre now I am on much higher calories in maintenance. As well as 40g of ground flaxseeds I do add the supplement Inulin which is very low in calories but incredibly high in fibre but you can’t have that much or it causes explosive activity in the digestive system.

I still can’t get to 30g fibre at the moment, but can often now hit my target on Crono of 25g as I have increased my calories. I used chia seed in yoghurt, porridge or smoothies to get my fibre up while on 800, and have kept using it now as it seems to help. I also have some psyllium husk powder for emergencies, but rarely have to resort to that. I regard the difficulty getting enough fibre and the fact you suddenly have to add salt to things as two of the biggest ‘problems’ I had with getting my head around how my body worked on 800 calories.

Thanks again, folks. I was already using Fybogel (ispaghula husk) when I started the diet – had been using it for a couple of weeks or so, but after a couple fo days on the diet I did a bit more digging about Fybogel and found that it increases blood sugar levels so immediately dropped it. I seeds that I use with porage and yogurt are a mix containing flax and chia, but I only add 10g or so in view of their very high calorific value.
Today I am really going try and cut down on the carbs and will do so for at least a couple of days before reverting to porage occasionally as opposed to every day.
Thanks again
Mike

Pleased to able to say that things are moving a bit in the right direction. Four weeks on the diet has seen me lose 7 lbs. BS has also improved a little, but still a good wy to go there.
Thanks again for all the help and advice
Mike

Hi Michael,
Our local medical lab says that I should fast with no food or drink, only water, for 10 hours before a blood test. They don’t mention any time of day being better or worse than any other, except mornings are probably more convenient. The idea that the liver dumps glycogen in the morning may need further checking.
You might try to get most of your calories from protein and fat, and really cut out the the carbs from oats, berries and sweet fruits, and see if that helps to accelerate your weight loss.
Wheat bran is a good source of fiber with few calories. It isn’t as heavy as fiber from vegetables but it is much more effective in providing bulk for the colon.
There is a lot of fiber in chia, but chia absorbs a lot of water and can really bulk up in your bowel. I learned the hard way to take it easy on the chia!
Jan

Jan – thanks for that. I meet the 10 hours before testing if I don’t have a last minute small snack before retiring – which has also been advised. I’ve had a look at foods whihc are low in carbs – with some surprising results. The problem as I see it is that most of the foods that I can identify as low carb are high in calories and very deficient in fibre – things like cheese, beef, etc. About the best ‘balance’ between carbs and calories that I can find are things like chicken and salmon – but both just about totally deficient in fibre. I do use seeds with whatever I have for breakfast (except when it is an egg!)
Mike.

Hi Michael,
Most of your protein foods will be low fiber. You can have a chicken breast or pork tenderloin or piece of salmon, and surround it with veggies, like brocolli, cauli, kale, tomatoes, green beans mushrooms etc and you will have a pretty good supper with lots of nutrition but low calorie and low carb.
The diet is constipating. Try and have a high fiber lunch or snack, like kefir with chia or bran and some Greek yogurt. This will help but it is a struggle keeping things moving. Basically we are putting less in, so getting less out. Lots of water is key.
Good luck.

Jan
Thanks for that – seems a good idea
Mike

Today is the end of week 5. I have seen my weight fall from 13-9 to 13-0 (BMI down from 25.1 to 24), which is gratifying and for the first time today I have seen a fall of any consequence in my FBG – 5.9 wheres it has, until today, been hovering just under 7 – still, one swallow does not make a summer, so fingers crossed that the improvement will continue.
Mike

Well, now at the end of week six and things have slowed. Weight down from 13-0 to 12-13 (probably 50 years or more since I was last under 13 stone!) but losing just one pound in a week is hardly setting the Thames alight. FBG today was 6.5, actually up from the last two readings whihc were 5.8 – I take a reading on Mondays and Thursdays (but as these are spot readings, fluctuations are inevitable – just wish it would fluctuate DOWN rather than UP!) Averages for the weeks are cals 755, carbs 36g, sat fat 13, unsat fat 22, protein 69g.
With only two more weeks to go I am a bit discouraged – not worried about the weight, but am about the FBG
Mike