I would be very grateful if anyone who has done the Fast 800 for a while and moved on to maintenance having met their target weight could tell me what their maintenance calories (on average) are per day.

Hi Pippilina,
I have lost over 40kg, over the last 16 months getting back to 1 stone below my traditional weight as an adult. I would say that its important to stay low carb so you remain in ketosis and then its easy to maintain your weight. If you are thinking in terms of cals in / cals out, then you are still thinking of this as being a temp diet and going back to your old way of eating. – Think about it . If 3500 calories equals a pound of fat, you have to get your calorie intake each day to within less than 10 calories to the amount burnt to prevent putting on a lb of fat a year. – Its just not possible. – When you get to maintenance, you will have got into the system of taking carbs low enough to get into fat burning mode when you need to, so you can mix up days when you join in celebrations or eat what you want to eat with days when you choose to burn off any fat stored.
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I have taken a little time off to targeting weight loss while I thought about what I wanted to do next. – I have always been overweight during my adult life but had piled on the kgs following a broken ankle which continued to be painful for a number of years limiting my ability to be active. – I am about to start another 6 month push to improve my body composition reducing the percentage of body fat and increasing the percentage of muscle, by combining keto, time restricted eating and fasting days with weight training. – I am going to have a beach ready body even if its decades later than I would have liked 🙂

Pippiilina, this will vary between each of us. Many here use an online calculator to determine TDEE (total daily
energy expenditure). Two years into maintenance, my calories are 1450-1500, and more importantly are the
carbs. I stay under 35 a day. If I chose to exercise frequently, I would be able to eat more, but exercise isn’t
my thing. Low carb frees me from hunger, so this works well for me 🙂 Ju.st google TDEE, and you will find
the calculation.

Allie

Thanks, Allie-Cat and Jgwen. I posted on the Welcome about the MATADOR thing. I think my concern with staying on this long term is the drop in metabolic rate. I ate low carb before so am used to limiting that. I just wonder if maintenance is 1500 cals (which is considered a diet amount), whether the diet caused the metabolic rate to drop and stay low long term. It sounds like it might have this effect. I do think the diet is great and I love the ‘fast’ nature of it. In MM’s book, he only does the 800 a day for two weeks and then moves onto 5:2.

One thing to remember, Pippilina, is that MMosley designed his program for diabetics, and he didn’t have much
weight to discard (thin on the outside, fat on the inside, otherwise know as a “TOFI”) A lot of us worried about
our metabolic rate long term, but that isn’t really a concern IF you continue to keep your carbs restricted. Returning
to them will only take you back to where you started. We frequently refer to this WOE as a marathon, and not a
sprint. It is a change in lifestyle, not a quick fix, and all of our results are anecdotal. I know of others who manage
very well on 2000 calories a day….Maintenance is somewhat trial and error, and you will establish your own
parameters when you reach this stage. Very best to you! This plan really does work 🙂 And it is really liberating
when it does…

Alllie

Thanks Allie Cat. I have finally in week two moved into a feeling great stage (today is the first day) and skipped up the stairs. It’s great to see how much success everyone has had. Thanks for the advice

Hi, If you have your carbs low enough to be in ketosis, then your body can freely access your fat stores, so there is no need for your body to respond to your reduction in eaten calories and reduce your BMR.

The reduction in BMR only occurs when you are counting calories but including carbs in your calories. How long you can count calories and include carbs without effecting your BMR probably depends on your history of dieting, and how insulin resistant you are and a whole heap of variables. – I haven’t seen any research on the topic, other than the research that shows that “dieting” does cause a reduction in BMR.

However, it appears that it is possible to reverse the problem. I saw a post on the Dr Fung facebook group this morning that he is planning to publish some information on doing this in practice later this year. Apparently he is working with 6 people who have damaged their BMR from being contestants on the Biggest Loser tv program and working with them using fasting to reverse the damage. I would guess that he is building a program based on the research that BMR increases during a fast.

It sounds to me that you are like me and like to find research about different topics that interest you including asked for details of other peoples experiences. – I looked into the topic of how long you can stay following the low carb low calorie without risking impact on BMR. I can not find any definitive research which shows any dramatic impact on BMR providing you are in ketosis. – There will obviously be some impact of loosing weight, as you drop weight your body needs less fuel to carry out activities. – I think the key is to not make assumptions on how many carbs you can have and still be in ketosis. – The graph showing the impact even a low level of carbs had on fat burning capacity shows it is a very steep curve. So to be safe I use the cheap breathalyser method of testing to ensure I am in ketosis, which means I know my insulin response to what I have eaten has not effected my body to access my own fats.

Looking at it from the other side, are there any benefits of occasionally having an insulin spike and spending most of your time in ketosis against always being in ketosis. – In practice there are always going to be occasions during each year when you join friends for a meal out, or attend a celebration which includes carb rich foods, so its impractical for most people to stay in ketosis for 365 days a year for years. – Is there anything in our hormone regulation system which says that if we don’t occasionally have an insulin spike our body will eventually also reduce BMR? I haven’t found any formal research, but there are a number of interactions between the suit of hormones which regulate body function with insulin switching them on and off. – I did see a podcast which I recently posted a link to on the Take a lLook at This thread where a doctor suggested a long term cycle each week of 5 days keto, a 24 hour fast, and a 24 hour feast of eating whatever you want as a program that would work for life. The bodybuilders photographed on other pages of the blog which hosted this podcast were an attractive endorsement 🙂

Brilliant, as always, JGwen! You have a natural gift for explaining the research, and I know that I count on you
routinely to do so 🙂 I simply know what works long term! Keep posting! We all can benefit from your data
driven approach to all of this… xxx

Thanks JGwen, that is really helpful. Yes, I am a bit of a research geek! I do/did have a real worry with the diet that the BMR would drop and know that once drops the body ‘markers’ it and it can lower permanently. I have always been wary of calorie restriction for this reason. Good to hear that this does not happen in ketosis and I wasn’t aware that this changed the goal posts. Any links to this would be much appreciated. I have the wee sticks so know I am in K (though low or mid – depending on how hydrated I am (doing about 3lt a day)). There’s so much we don’t know about the body and so much conflicting research; you can find evidence to prove anything. I know that low carb works for me and have done this for a good few years. My absolute downfall though is alcohol (I know, I know!!!). I can do low carb long term, but that cold glass of sauvignon blanc or gin and tonic…
But…on day 10 and lost 7lb (no booze and in ketosis) so all is well. Thanks for your patience (I am a very questioning and curious patient which I know can be very irritating!)

Hi Pippilina,
The drop in BMR was also my concern. I am an Aspie, and my favourite word is Why, so don’t worry, its not irritating to me to have detailed discussions.
I would suggest as well as Dr Bikmans work look at Dr Fungs work. Again look at the Take a look at this thread from the beginning of 2018 when there were links posted to podcasts by him.
I would recommend moving away from relying on pee sticks to monitor for ketosis. They are not reliable. https://drjockers.com/5-ways-measure-ketones/ – I have posted other links on the Take a look thread in the past on measuring ketosis, one of which demonstrates that the results for using one of the cheap breathalysers is the same as the expensive one.

I was wondering the same as you pippilina. I love research and am I why asked and mum to an Aspie( a bit of one myself probably) . Thanks JGwen for the information I’ll have a look at those links

You may like this research paper which looks if intermittent fasting has a different result to cal counting every day.
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https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/obr.12787?shared_access_token=uVaxigImxQDOVm1BqR2svYta6bR2k8jH0KrdpFOxC656Q0JGnx9YvDskft26wP8lND-afano1GciKI2VQg66wc398ZuOh_r3gD3RlvaVNZd7_NuZM8g5cBkSnROOFAvfdqIlUfkIoGvPCIJag-MJnQ%3D%3D&

Ooooh… just watched the Dr Bikman Insulin vs Ketones. Really interesting and lots I didn’t know. Makes a lot more sense. Thanks JGwen. I did try to read the research paper, but have to be honest, it was a bit beyond me. Guess I’m not that scientific after all! I’m going to look some more at the Bikman talks and Dr Fung.

I’m going to learn and watch more about ketones but… I notice that gin/vodka has no carbs. Yet, I know from experience that these DO raise insulin and do put weight on. Any links to info on this? I know instinctively that this is not the ‘good news’ I was looking for (i.e. I can glug gin freely) but would like to find out how alcohol affects ketones/insulin as knowing why makes it easier for me to stop. On Day 11 – lost 8lb and feel good BTW! Going to stop the 800 fast after two weeks and move to v low carb but not calorie restricted for a week or two and assess.

Hi Pippilina, I can vouch for this. After a particular stressful time recently of trying to get my blood glucose and weight down pending blood test I decided to relax and have a couple of v&t’s (slimline) last night. I even missed out my evening snack to save some calories and I gained 1lb overnight. No carbs but plenty of calories. My home poured couple of drinks were probably the equivalent of 2 doubles so around 400 cals. But you might be interested in the science behind the weight gain. The liver processes alcohol before it concentrates on any other jobs it has to do, like processing fats. It can take the liver 2 hours to process one drink so my liver was very busy for about 8hours trying to clean my body of the alcohol so anything else just sits there.