Hello,
My husband and I are planning to start the Fast 800 this week. We aim to try for 16 -8 as we both eat our last meal quite early in the evening and don’t snack afterwards.We also work in the garden most days and feel we can comfortably cope without food until late morning. However as we are retired, our early morning routine has included a huge pot of tea before breakfast. I have never taken sugar and can happily transfer to drinking mint tea, which I believe won’t break my fast. Unfortunately my husband hates mint tea and is worried how he will cope without both milk and sugar. He thinks that he can just about drink black tea but the sweetness factor will be an issue for him to start with. Whilst I know sweeteners are frowned he is considering using them just until he settles into a new routine. If he does add them to his black tea will it be classed as breaking his fast. Sadly there’s no point in suggesting herbal or fruit teas as a substitute as he hates them!!
Thanks

Hi Owl,
The whole reason for keeping carbs low is to keep insulin low. – When our bodies take anything which tastes sweet the body raises insulin levels in preparation for dealing with the sugar. Which is why artificial sweeteners raise insulin levels and so should be avoided.
There are less carbs in double cream than there are in milk, so a coffee with double cream would be an option for something rich to start the day with. – Or you could try having double cream in the tea.

Sorry, I don’t think i’ve made myself very clear! It’s not the carb issue of the diet I’m concerned with it’s the fasting part. We’re trying to go 16 hours without food, from 7pm at night to 11 am the following morning. I understand that we are allowed to drink water or black tea or coffee during those 16 hours of fasting as they contain no calories. However my husband wonders if having artificial sweetener in his black tea will break his “fast” as in reality sweeteners do have a couple of calories in them.

Hi Artful Owl !
I think what ever you do has to be sustainable – although sometimes challengeing, these changes in our ways of eating are not meant to be some extreme form of penance.
I usually fast 16 hours but have regulalry broken at 14 hours to have a cup of tea, just the way I like it. 14 hours is still a good fasting window – what we are all trying to acheive with time limited eating is a long a break as is possible for your personal circumstances. Sometimes you will do more than 16 hours and sometimes it will be less.
And that first cup of the day is very important to some of us !
To add, some reference material says its not breaking a fast if you keep it under 50 calories, some say it does break it.
I dont think a black tea with a cheeky sweetener is going to be a fail in fasting terms. Its probably got the same calories as the amount of toothpaste you accidentally ingest every morning :).
I am going to suggest whatever you have, you make sure you actually like it.
Good luck !

The old idea of calories in / calories out has been repeatedly proven to not be an accurate reflection of how our bodies process food. There are no hormone regulation systems that assess how many calories we have had, our bodies respond to the macros of what we have eaten / drunk.

The reason for fasting is to keep insulin low for a number of hours. – Our bodies are always producing a background level of insulin, but this spikes depending on what we eat.

Insulin acts as a switch. When our insulin levels are low our bodies can access our fat stores as an alternative source of energy, when we take in anything which causes a spike in insulin our bodies can not access our fat stores.

Artificial sweeteners cause an insulin spike, because our bodies are clever enough to raise insulin when we have anything that tastes sweet, so you should avoid them even though they don’t have any calories. Double cream does not cause an insulin spike. So you could have that in your tea / coffee in a morning as long as you count the calories as part of your 800 allowance.

Think the bottom line is that your husband needs to try to manage without anything sweet, so that insulin isn’t spiked, which will help to control hunger. My solution to this was to drink my tea much weaker than I previously had and a teaspoon of double cream softens the flavour further. The calories in a teaspoon of double cream is approx 20, so negligible and I’m sure the fasters on here would agree that this would not be considered breaking fast.

All I can tell you, is I work to a minimum of 16:8 and use double cream as stated above, as well as some almond milk in other drinks and I have reached my target weight, with a loss of 3st.

Hope you manage to find a solution that sits comfortable for you both – best wishes ….

Hello again Artful Owl,

My bad for sure but I didnt ask if you or your husband have, or have had, any issues with blood glucose and / or insulin resistance ?

Some of us (inc me) are here to lose weight but are still within the norms of BG ranges throughout the day so have sometimes different views from those who are factoring in insulin sensitivity.

Just my view – if your hubby was necking a 2litre bottle of diet coke first thing in the morning then artificial sweetener would be much more of an issue – an interim sweetener is unlikley to do much harm.

The ladies above are absolutely correct in that the more you can reduce any sweet tastes in your life, the better – but this does not mean exclude them entirely (just mostly !).

If you suspect BG may be an issue for either of you, perhaps some experimentation and monitoring will help you understand how your choices impact you.

Thank you all for your replies and your advice.
M2019, thank you for checking but like you we are both within the norms of BG ranges, our main concern is to lose weight. My husband however is the one with a sweet tooth! Our normal WOE in the past hasn’t included many carbs, we don’t usually eat bread potatoes or past, although chocolate has been an issue! Unfortunately a year away from home and our norm, looking after my very seriously ill daughter, found us comfort eating and piling on the pounds. We both feel that the Fast 800 is something we can sustain as it is a little similar to how we used to be.( I had to admit to having a giggle at the thought of my hubby necking diet Cola first thing in the morning! He is such an old fashioned type, diet cola doesn’t enter his vocabulary never mind his mouth!!) We have shopped today ready for tomorrow as THE start day and I notice there are sweeteners in the shopping bag so it looks as though that is the way he is going! As you say it needs to be sustainable not miserable otherwise it won’t last.
Thanks again

Artful Owl (lovely name btw),

I am sorry you have had such a tough year and I can identify with food being the comfort in such difficult times. Cheese and Chocolate are my long standing stress companions 🙂

Sounds like you’ve got a great starting point in that your previous way of eating was aligned with the BSD – good news !

My big shock when i started was my understanding about portions – I can recommend doing a food diary at the start to get this on track. Things like My Fitness Pal will record your Macros so you can track your carbs along with the calories. You can also track exercise (incluidng gardning, surprisingly for me, its quite the calorie burner !) which can be the booster in terms of weight loss and therefore motivation !

I spent the first couple of weeks working out what my optimum way to spend my 800 calories was and havent moved far off it since because I know I won’t be hungry. Once portions were controlled, carbs under 50g and some sort of exercise happened every day, its been a consistent weight loss for me.

Btw, you dont have to have your carbs limited to 50g – but if you find weight loss stalls or you are getting a bit rumbly between meals, then dropping carbs to this level can help. Some go as low as 20g with great success – but you will know what works for you.

Good luck for D Day tomorrow !

I am sorry M2019, but it doesn’t matter if someone is IR or not. The answer to the question if sweeteners in a morning cup of tea would break the fast is. Yes, it would. The research into the impact of insulin on fat metabolism shows that its a very steep curve, even if someone is not IR and is in the normal range of insulin production the increase in insulin from sweeteners would have a major impact on fat burning. See the graph in this link for an illustration. https://medium.com/the-mission/the-sweet-spot-for-intermittent-fasting-9aae12a2158c
I should introduce myself Owl, I have been following this WoE for 17 months now, and also have a physically active lifestyle. I can assure you that raising insulin levels increases the risk of struggling with hunger. The reason is if your insulin levels are high so your body can not access your fat stores for fuel then naturally when you are being active such as working in the garden your body will respond by prompting you to eat. However, its common for men to loose weight at a faster rate than women, so maybe this knowledge will help balance the weight loss between yourself and your husband 🙂

Wow you never stop learning on this WOE path, I am on 16-8 myself, I have two coffees a day black, with a sweetener one is normally during my fasting period too! Being honest I have even had a few glasses of coke zero as a reward, my weight drop and bloods are showing fantastic results, but I had no idea I was doing so wrong.

Hi The Budgie, I wouldn’t like to comment on the coke zero ;-)….although Michael Mosley does say in his Fast800 book…diet soda if you must! However surely something can’t be so wrong if your weight loss is good and your bloods are improving. It must be better for you than how it was before:-) It sounds as though you are doing great.
I think I need to do more research for myself about the effects of sweeteners on the body. I do know though if my husband doesn’t have sweetened tea in the morning at least in the beginning it is quite likely he will quit the fasting altogether and it is him more than me who needs to lose the weight. So perhaps we’ll give it a try and see how it goes.
M2019, I can so relate to portion size. I like to think I eat healthily normally……however as my upbringing was as a farmer’s daughter, portion size was a joke, we were never knowingly underfed!! I’m sure that is the part I’ll struggle with too. It’s good to hear gardening burns the calories but perhaps not when I’m sat potting seedlings on:-) We foolishly bought a house on a hillside so I have to push the wheelbarrow up hill. Years ago before I developed arthritis I used to be a spinning instructor, that was easy compared to getting my compost to the top of my garden these days!! Thanks for the tip of myfitnesspal, I’ve just signed up. that will be so much easier than keeping track of micros on a piece of paper….I tend to lose them !
My next job now is to make a big veggie curry ready for D Day…..trying hard to weigh out our portions…oh dear!!

JGwen,
Thank you for the article – which does seem to suggest that the fasting window is barely warming up at 16 hours and we should be aiming for beween 18 and 24 hours (eek !).

I appreciate we dont agree on this but I do think we should try and respond with what OP’s want to do rather than what we think they should do.

Neither of us know the impact of one sweetner in the morning cup of tea on the OP’s husband – but I think its safe to assume that there is probably a direct correlation between the volume of AS consumed and Insulin levels and this article says as much:
“Eating causes insulin to rise, the amount of the rise being dependent on a number of factors, such as type and amount of food eaten and the insulin sensitivity of the person doing the eating.”.

I am sure what we can agree on is that it is better for people to make some positive changes rather than none at all and that these change can evolve.

Hi The Budgie

Well done on you on the positive results ! If it ain’t broke, you probably don’t need to fix it 🙂

I wouldn’t say you are doing it wrong, more that there is a lot of research out there which makes interesting reading, but then I am geek who likes reading research papers on any topic I am interested in.

I have seen over time repeated cycles of people starting out well on weight loss and then asking for help on the forum because they have hit a plateau/ haven’t lost as much weight as they would like. Rather than giving people misleading advice I think its best to be accurate in replying to their question and leave them to make decisions for themselves aware that they may make slower progress or hit a stall down the line.

However, having seen what happens when someone asks about sweeteners on the Dr Fung facebook group I would suggest never even mentioning the topic on that forum. 🙂

M2019, have you found your way to the TAKE A LOOK AT THIS thread? Many of us long termers
here have expanded our knowledge far beyond what is contained in MMosleys books, and we
consider his books a starting point. There are many authors and podcasts sited there, and opinions
about artificial sweeteners and eating windows are discussed in far greater detail. JGwen is our
undisputed research guru, and has added so much for those of us who want to increase our
knowledge on how fasting affects us. My personal favorite in fully understanding how this way
of life works is Gary Taubes book, “Why We Get Fat…and What To Do About It”. I’m somewhat
relentless in recommending it to newcomers like yourself. Best of luck to you,

Allie

As Artful Owl mentions, she also seems interested in reading up on things. Artful (or Owl – which would you prefer?) let us know how your husband (and you!) get on, sweeteners to start with or not. Your husband may just be happy to shake the morning sweet cuppa habit after just a little bit (whether it’s because tastes simply change or he does find it slows rate or weight discard down) Veggie curry is a delicious way to kick off this WoE. Which I think also has its detractors on the web (I spotted something called “The Low carb fraud”) but it obviously works for many, incl me!

Alliecat,

I say this gently, so please take it this way.

If you are looking to discourage any other views than those validated or approved by you, JGwen and your group of longtermers, you are going the right way about it. For example, you feel its ok to assume I am a newcomer to this WOE because you havent seen me on this forum and/or I am not part of your group. That is quite some assumption ! That being said, if this is actually your website then I should go and play somewhere else.

JGwen –

Its clear you have been on a journey and I am guessing your knowledge and approach has evolved over time to meet your needs. Perhaps we agree, perhaps we don’t but I think its important that others here find their own journey. If we use Owl as an example – tomorrow is Day 1 and her hubby doesnt want to start out removing all sweetness from his tea, so he is dropping down from sugar to an AS. What I think about AS is irrelevant – he is making a step in the right direction. In the future, he may give up AS on his own, he may wait until he hits a plateau, he may keep the blinking thing and give up some other carb instead – who knows, its his future and his choices. Its not many people who will start this way of eating the way you have refined it for yourself today as a longtermer- we all benefit from going through the process of learning from our own feedback from our bodies, tests, different views and of course, mistakes.

Oh dear I hope I haven’t stirred a hornet’s nest up here. I obviously have a lot of research to do to be as knowledgeable as you “old timers”!
Hi Alliecat, I’ve just bought Gary Taubes book after reading your recommendation on an old post….. unfortunately I’ve come home to France after nursing my disabled daughter through a serious illness and left it back in England!! I will get it read eventually!
Hi sixturkeys…Owl will be fine thanks! I’ll certainly keep you posted on our progress. I think we’ll have to compromise on artificially sweetened black tea with my OH to begin with as he has a bigger sugar habit to kick first! (I daren’t say more just in case he reads this!). We both love Veggie curry but I can see why it has it’s detractors…… you really do have to watch the carbs! I foolishly added too much onion and it’s hiked up the carbs. On the positive side we do have enough calories left to put some chicken in, swings and roundabouts eh!

M, I really think it is a question of being passionate about this WoE and its benefits rather than wanting to impose views. We are of course all unique, we all have different aspirations and what makes us tick or not. This is a broad church, we all find our way in our own fashion, but experience can be very helpful in suggesting what might help or hinder. Please do stay on; it is good to get a wide range of how people are getting on; highs and lows!

M2019, you are certainly entitled to your opinions, but not your own set of facts. My contributions
and support for our wonderful community are well known on this forum. We earn respect here, we
don’t demand it. That means we put in the time to get to know everyone, and share our experiences
and knowledge that we acquire along the way. If you are incapable of accepting a recommendation
on other threads that may be of interest to not only you, but others, I can find little interest in following
your posts. C’est la vie!

Dear artful owl….Please don’t fret at all. You are very welcome here, so please disregard any of this
unpleasantness. I think it’s fantastic that you and your husband are embarking on this journey to
wellness together! That’s the way that my O/H lost 40lbs, and I lost 140. We did it together! Tastes
do REALLY change with respect to sweetness, and I think you will both surprise yourselves 🙂 Have
you had an opportunity to read other threads? The ONE WEEK AT A TIME thread is a very active
one, where you will have the opportunity to meet a wonderful mix of experienced and new BSDers,
and we are traveling this road together, week after week. I can promise that you will receive a
warm welcome there, so please join us so that we can get to know you better. We even manage
to have a lot of fun along the way! After 31 months, I still continue to learn something new each
day 🙂 Best best wishes,

Allie

M2019 I am also sayng this very gently…

This is the first time I have felt shocked by the tone of a post on this forum. I have been following this way of eating since September with a 3 stone/2O kg loss. I attribute my success to my personal detemination but also and especially to the invaluable advice and encouragement I have received from Day 1 by Allie, JGwen, Sunny B and many other members or the “group of longtermers ” ( ???) for whom I have absolute respect.

I started out with many misconceived ideas about this WOE.I have been guided to numerous videos, podcasts and books which have immensely increased my knowledge and understanding. JGwen is second to none in her capacity to research and analyse masses of information and she generously makes that available to us all. It certainly helped me to avoid numerous pitfalls with regard to foods which spike sugar and cause a stall in weight loss.

I find it profoundly shocking that you should intimate that certain members form an exclusive group based on their long term experience ??

I have never felt that anyone was attempting to impose their views. On the contrary I feel privileged to be a member of this forum and to be able to benefit from the immense experience of our fantastic maintainers who know what they are talking about.

I wish you continued success M2019 but please try to express your views with respect and kindness .

We have always wored hard here to be welcoming, inclusive and supportive, offering advice based on our knowledge and experience, which sometimes means telling people things they may not want to accept. The information that has been supplied here on the topic of sweetness and it’s impact is supported by science.

Owl, please don’t feel you have done anything wrong, questioning is how we learn and build our knowledge and us “long termers” are happy to share what we have discovered. Whether people wish to accept our advice or disagree, is of course entirely up to them.

I have to take exception though to any member of the forum attacking other posters and denigrating what has always been a safe space for all.

Hi 6T and thank you for your comments which I value.

I am as passionate as you all and certainly not a newbie to this WOE – but unfortunately my knowledge and experience does not seem to count as this board has become an echo chamber on top of some rather selective reading and/or interpretation of what people have said/written/asked, including some of the sciencey bits and bobs. Context is essential for relevance.

You can see the accusations of denigration and attacking while calling out my ‘tone’ which usually reflects the readers feelings rather than the writers intentions…..I’ve certainly not done any of the above.

Wishing you well 6T !

If we were all sitting around a table having coffees, I am sure this might just have been put down to a spirited conversation, with differences of opinions and emphasis. Then we all move on. I really think Allie was just suggesting one book which helped her and just assumed you might be a “newbie”, I don’t think it was meant as a put down. Written posts can come across in a way which was not the writer’s intention or just sound very blunt. I know, I started out on here with crossed wires (with Allie as it happens)! I really don’t think though that there is any intention to impose an orthodoxy, anyone’s “my way or no way”. We all have a common aim and we all find our own way there, which might be very different from others.

You are SO right, sixturkeys! We had a bit of a wobble to start, born of the limitations of the written word, but we
corrected it at warp speed, and today I look forward to your wit and insight each day. It does keep me smiling, and
I enjoy all of your posts so much 🙂

Hi M2019
I’ve just come back online and read this. I also hope you stay on. I’ve enjoyed reading your responses.

If I’m being really honest I think there is a kernel of truth in what M2019 is saying. I’m not talking about any individuals, but generally about the forum. While the knowledge built up here is invaluable in answering questions, I have wondered at times if it can also be a bit of a burden, stopping people from finding their own way. I’ve certainly thought that at times about my own responses.

Best wishes all

Hi Jennie10,
As a newby and most likely, after today, a one off poster can I agree wholeheartedly with what you’ve just posted. I too had an empathy with M2019 and what she had to say. I felt that she had more understanding and compassion of my OH’s position.

I have to admit that I bit my tongue and kept quiet at some of the answers to my post……I now regret asking what seemed at the time a logical question. I know the answers were given with the best of intentions and perhaps superior knowledge to mine. I’m also certain that many people have benefited from that knowledge, but I must admit that I have felt as though I have been preached to at times. I am well aware that artificial sweeteners are not the way to go long term, but I am also well aware of my OH’s attitude to his new WOE and what I need to do to keep him “onside”. No one but myself knows or can begin to know my and my OH’s situation, our physical makeup, our reasons for this new WOE eating or how my or my OH’s body will react to it. Everyone is different and will find different methods will suit them better.
My Dad had a saying “there’s non more holy than the converted”…… maybe we should all keep that in mind before we post.

Over and out.

Artful Owl – I like the sound of your Dad.

Stay on, don’t go and both start as planned. It’ll all be fine, and besides I want to here how Owl gets on – I’ve been trying to get my OH ‘onside’ with things for 25 years!
Jennie
xxx

Yes Owl, please do stay and I also hope M doesn’t leave. Some may be more rigorous than others in their approach (me not being one…), but at the end of the day we all want to (and do!) benefit from the WoE, whether it’s straight in at the deep end or more just initial finding our way and fine-tuning over time for what we want to achieve, and our own physiology and picking up tips and pointers along the road – from those who undoubtedly have found their recipe for their own successes!

Speaking (Quacking) for myself . . . and Im closer to being a Duck than a Duckling 🙂 Ive been “partaking” of the WoE for 9 months at weeks end. I was blond and in a desperate situation . . . and with a few words rom a friend who said loveryur carbs and BSL’s will take care of themselves . . . the same day the book was miraculously found at a charity store and I began the 8WBSD the same day. I took it on to lower my spiralling BGL’s – due in the main to my consumption of OATS, CRISPBREADS, and COFFEE SACHETS. My weight discard was an unexpected luxury and bonus! When I was introduced to this “diet” – which isnt like a “do it for a while then everything will be ok until the next time!” type of diet! (We all know who runs those so no names no packdrill!) The wording is meaning a diet like a cow has a diet of grass or a spider has a diet of insects. It is what THEY eat ALL THE TIME. When I found the forum and various threads . . . I found my way to places where I could ask for specific information . . . advice, support and encouragement when things were tough or confusing. I was seeking advice of my reactions and changes as stages progressed . . . I was asking how others dealt with cravings – I was offered solutions . . . offered suggestions which had worked for others . . . and supplied with details of links to readings podcasts videos books etc for further investigation/drawing my own conclusions if needed. NEVER was I DIRECTED nor TOLD to DO ANYTHING . . . and this little WoodDuckie is aghast at the tone and intimations being spread throughout several Threads right now. If one is doing this purely for weight loss, then may I suggest creating threads which reflect that theme? Those of us doing our best to reduce IR or BGL’s from critical to acceptable levels are already in sufficient distress or confusion at such a diagnosis – and looking for solutions to the dilemma. When we get to maintenance . . . – and THAT goal is SO individual it doesnt bear discussing . . . then is the time to add or allow the “baddies” to be imbibed as one chooses – and be prepared for the consequences.. If one is serious about better health . . . then its all or nothing. MAKE the changes . . . then the tweaks. Remember when a child and we like meat but not veges . . .? We tended t eat all the meat and let veges go cold . . .making them less palatable? Adults always said eat them first then the meat . . . well how about the same be applied where possible . . . go in at the deep end . . . give it our best shot . . . or dont be surprised if it doesnt work . . . If only doing it for weight loss then I would consider the results are going to be VERY different. Why? Commonsense says . . . if BSL’s are not challenged to begin with the changes probably wont be so dramatic 🙂 My own experiences with sweeteners . . .? disastrous. THATS why I use a variation of spices, like cinnamon, vanilla, nutmeg with cream for my beverages. But that doesnt mean to say everyone else either likes them or SHOULD do them. Its a SUGGESTION – NOT a DIRECTION. I enjoyed the forum as NOONE was pushing their own personal agenda or barrow. It was a group of helpful, knowledgeable individuals – sharing there most vulnerable moments. Im blessed for having been privileged to have been drawn here for their input to my success – dropping BSL’s HbA1C from 12.9 – 6.4 – so by more than half in 6 months – which is what I originally changed to this WoE for! . . . and which was helped to be achieved by the groundbreakers. All I had to do was walk in their footsteps of suggestions – until I found my OWN solutions. My bonus was a few kilos and many centimetres have been discarded as well. No one is boss here . . . there is no heirarchy . . . just some who have walked the walk and can with experience talk the talk. Sadly others who THINK they KNOW . . . or maybe had some small item work for them – because thy were here for a different reason. Of I was to drink (soda) we Aussies call soft drink . . . Id be on insulin. I CHOSE NOT TO IMBIBE!!! It was way easier than confusing my body with yes today and no tomorrow. But thats my issue, my choice and my story. Make of that what you will. We can all chose to do or not. To listen or ignore. Kill off the forum or help it grow . . . its up to us how this goes from here . . . I know what Im choosing. Quack. Quack.

Oh Duckie, I hope my post did not upset you! I just want everyone to get on together! I am doing this for weight loss, and that obviously is very different from tackling real health issues that you and others faced or are facing, and are doing so wonderfully well in dealing with and getting and feeling so much better! I was not suggesting that a lackadaisical approach is appropriate and starting in the paddling pool is not going to be of any help to anyone! And yes it is so helpful to have guidance on here. it is sad to detect a real note of distress in your post – and again I am so sorry if I have (again) blundered with my own post. xx

Its distressing to interpret the emotions in all of these posts. Part of the reason I don’t do too much forum or online chat is because of how easily the typed word can miss its meaning and the worry of how people might take the opinions expressed.

https://www.fastcompany.com/3036748/why-its-so-hard-to-detect-emotion-in-emails-and-texts

Sorry can I ask a really stupid question, I see that woodduckie mentioned replacing sweetener with vanilla is that carb and calorie free? As I myself needs a morning coffee with a sweet taste to get going and sometimes if I’ve been working really hard need a sweet tasting drink to keep me going. So until yesterday I was using sweeteners Ian’s the odd Coke Zero to help get through the day. If I could use vanilla to fool myself and stop using sweeetners would be a massive help. Thanks everybody.

I did a google search and found this info: 0.5gms per teaspoon. I use the SAME table for ALL calculations 🙂 So a guide from one source only for ALL my foods – makes me feel like Im comparing apples with apples. 🙂 On the same chart were extra questions . . . including this one:
“Is vanilla extract Keto friendly?
Apart from using pure vanilla beans, another way to boost your ketogenic treats with vanilla is to use a quality sugar-free vanilla extract like this one that is made from Madagascan vanilla beans. This product only contains vanilla, water and alcohol.”
I only use the extract – (expensive but lasts a long time if only using just a few drops – and thats ALL I ever have used). Coupled with nutmeg, mixed spice or cinnamon and full cream adds around 30 calories to my daily intake – which I do my best to keep around 800.

Suggestion only remember . . . BUT it works for me 🙂 Quack! Quack!

Hey sixturkeys (now 5 Im sure!) – All good my friend 🙂 All good! 🙂 SUGGESTIONS as opposed to DIRECTIONS has been the key to help, support and advice here for as long as Ive been involved. 9 months . . . long enough to create another human being 🙂 – a different one I am today through these threads and those contributing their highs and lows . . . successes and failures – hints, clues and detours towards individual’s successes and problem solving. Safe in the knowledge there was/will be no judgement here. 🙂 JUDGEMENT is what appears to be creeping in . . . subtle but present nevertheless. Confusion then arrives . . , and failures can result. We are in no need of those brave enough to face such (what may be seen/considered as) radical changes to DO SOMETHING for themselves in the face of adversities. That takes guts and courage to even consider. THEY need a safe place to go and this WAS it . . . still is . . . but minefields and diversions from the path are being laid . . . those who have been here a while see them . . . newbies dont yet know what steps to take . . and we need to protect them 🙂 So all good my friend! You are have been a breath of fresh air and contributed much . . . probably more than you realise! Well done and stick with us on the train. 🙂 Thanks for the note and response but truly . . . ALL GOOD! 🙂

Phew! I think we should maybe now declare this particular thread closed – but not before saying, Budgie, make sure you get the proper vanilla extract (all the brands I have used in the UK come in brown bottles) not “vanilla flavouring” which would be with the little food colouring bottles etc in the same bakery section. As Duckie says it is not cheap but lasts a long time! And I do hope to see everyone on other threads!

Great Idea sixturkeys:) Birds of a feather . . . Thank you for embellishing the vanilla description for me 🙂 Can be confusing when we are describing from different countries:) And I sometimes write in shorthand 🙂 SO . . . much appreciated 🙂 Quack! Quack!

Thank you my feathered friends, I will look into the vanilla, may even try cinnamon, I know whenever in Greece I drink cappuccinos with cinnamon, so might be worth a go in black coffee. I love the idea of double cream in a coffee too! how great would that be to say in front of my skinny friends, ill have a black coffee with double cream please!!! Thanks for your suggestions.

So very well said, Duckie, my dear friend! You ARE a whole new person, and it has been such a pleasure to see you
emerge into the confident woman you were always meant to be.
Six turkeys (or5?), I agree that we birds must fly onto a new space! Come along with us Budgie…Your posts are a
true pleasure to read, as well. 🙂 🙂 🙂

Have a great day, all!

Allie

🙂 Worth a try Budgie! It might just be the ticket . . Ive never been able to drink black coffee so can comment no further on success or otherwise of the spices additives . . . but individual tastes make the world go round 🙂 Mixed spice was another I tried . . . simply because I picked up the wrong jar from the “mixed box” of shakers 🙂 Be ADVENTURESOME! just test the weather outside the box . . . (or rather) the cage! 🙂 Maybe come to the duckpond one day 🙂
Thank you alliecat for your kind words. You swept me under your nurturing wing . . . (no . . . cats have paws!) – when I first dipped my webbed toes in the forum water . . . and quickly showed me a safe haven to investigate the best stepping stones across the river.
HAHAHA! Love the feathered friends 🙂 Six turkeys, the budgie, and a woodduck . . . and add the (once) ginger cat . . . what a sigh . . . particularly at moulting time! A light note to complete my day with a smile . . . Goodnight to all from the downunder duckpond 🙂 Later on this morning is another day 🙂 Quack! Quack!

Ha! You are so quick, and a wordsmith besides, Duckie! I may have paws, but I was declawed many years ago. 🙂 You
know how harmless and gentle I am! Nighty night, and sleep well!

Hi Allie, M2019, Sixturkeys, Artful owl, JGwen, SunnyB, Wendleg, Budgie, Jordan’s, Jennie10 and Woodduckie,
I have not been part of this discussion, but I happened onto the conversation today while catching up on the forums and I just wanted to reach out to everyone — (maybe just for my own peace of mind) but also to say to each and every one of you:
I haven’t met you in person, but I wish I could. Every single person posting here has been important to me because you have shared your life and your experiences with me. I don’t always manage to share that feeling (and I don’t post much anymore due to time constraints) but please know that you and your point of view and your personal experience are interesting, important and relevant, always.
I have worried, too, that new posters could feel overwhelmed and find it hard to “break in” to the strong and loving bonds that have developed between many of the “long timers”. Not because longtimers aren’t excited to have them join, but just because they all KNOW each other, and have a HISTORY together and it’s incredibly scary to try to join an established circle of friends.
And it is especially hard when your experience or opinion doesn’t mesh with the shared experience of the group.
Those people who have been here a long time know me as a person who says “find YOUR way” and “YOUR sweet spot” — I also have said that I think you can EASE your way into this fantastic way of eating.
I know artificial sweeteners are duds, but they might be a useful “bridge” to a successful BSD way of life.
There is only ONE thing we can do wrong on the BSD — and that is to not do it at all.
We can stake our claim to our shared BSD Life by continuing to post here, with each other, perfect or imperfect.
I really hope everyone will stay. Please don’t feel you have to leave. This forum is wonderful and develops connections that go beyond our borders — it’s ok to disagree
Julia

That is such a lovely and, in my view, perceptive post Julia. We are both lawyers and both have the same take on this! Don’t know if there is a link there (I have always been advisory/transactional – just don’t have the temperament for litigation – tho that may be your field (with a lean towards mediation?))

Julia thank you for such an encouraging post
J xx